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Post by Stephen on Feb 13, 2010 11:30:07 GMT -5
Okay, one sentence at a time. Of course there are more of them coming. They are defending their homes against a foreign invader. They'd be insane not to fight us. Americans are not innocent. We have invaded their land, killed thousands of their women and children, interfered in the affairs of their nations for over 50 years, and made more than 30 million of their friends and neighbors homeless in the past 5 years alone. We fund cold blooded murder. We support it. We stand in church and applaud the gunmen we send to their countries. We are not innocent. We are NOT innocent. Regarding "nut job terrorists" - This slanderous term is intended to propagandize the theory that they are insane lunatics who act without any cause or motivation other than religious fanatacism. The term "terrorist" is from the root word, "terror," meaning "to cause terror or fear." I challenge you to come up with a definition of terrorism that cannot also be applied to America. If you cannot come up with one, I recommend that you stop using the term. Is this after receiving a fair trial before a jury of HIS peers as the law demands, or are we just murdering him? Same question. The right to trial and due process is not for American citizens. It is for all "persons." Please read the text of the Fifth Amendment below: No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to any specific class of privileged people. The Bill's Preamble makes that clear, stating that the purpose of the BoR is to add additional restrictions to the federal government: THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added If we fail to properly execute the law and give all persons due process and trial, then we are hypocrites, and it is we who are the real lawless terrorists. I urge you to set aside your emotions and American bias, and reconsider what is right and wrong. |
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2010 0:28:23 GMT -5
Okay, one sentence at a time. Of course there are more of them coming. They are defending their homes against a foreign invader. They'd be insane not to fight us. They aren't "defending defending their homes against a foreign invader", they flat out hate us. They hate our liberty, they hate our religion, they hate everything there is to hate about us and so therefore they want to do everything in there power to hurt us. Americans are not innocent. We have invaded their land, killed thousands of their women and children, interfered in the affairs of their nations for over 50 years, and made more than 30 million of their friends and neighbors homeless in the past 5 years alone. We fund cold blooded murder. We support it. We stand in church and applaud the gunmen we send to their countries. We are not innocent. We are NOT innocent. Regarding "nut job terrorists" - This slanderous term is intended to propagandize the theory that they are insane lunatics who act without any cause or motivation other than religious fanatacism. That's because they are insane lunatics who's purpose in there minds is to destroy Christianity and the Jews as some duty to the false and bupkiss god allah. The term "terrorist" is from the root word, "terror," meaning "to cause terror or fear." I challenge you to come up with a definition of terrorism that cannot also be applied to America. If you cannot come up with one, I recommend that you stop using the term. I don't see any sane Americans with bombs in there shoes and underwear ready to blow up the first person they see. Is this after receiving a fair trial before a jury of HIS peers as the law demands, or are we just murdering him? Same question. The right to trial and due process is not for American citizens. It is for all "persons." Please read the text of the Fifth Amendment below: No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to any specific class of privileged people. The Bill's Preamble makes that clear, stating that the purpose of the BoR is to add additional restrictions to the federal government: THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added If we fail to properly execute the law and give all persons due process and trial, then we are hypocrites, and it is we who are the real lawless terrorists. I urge you to set aside your emotions and American bias, and reconsider what is right and wrong. The Bill of Rights was written in a better time when all men still had a sense of honor and respect for one another, there was still such a thing as chivalry, but then you get people like Hitler, Stalin, Osama and the rest who won't wait to blow you up the moment you glance away. They were the ones and still are the ones who are responsible for millions of "innocent"deaths. (using the term knowing the fact that "we all sin and fall short of the glory of God") Did the Jews deserve the holocaust? People like Osama and Akmadinisad want to pretend like it never happened, because they are preparing to carry out the deed AGAIN. I for one won't stand by and watch people be slaughtered senselessly, Innocent or not. And now you'll probably say "well that's what were doing to them", well if we were doing that we would've bombed them into oblivion already. Our solders can't move into certain sectors for risk of "collateral damage", they care nothing about "collateral damage", if a suicide bomber takes civilians with him well they all think "no biggie, all in the name of allah". I'm not supporting the government here at all. I just won't sit by and say "well I'm a Christian so I'm supposed to be a fuzzy fuzzy, so... how about community service instead of a life sentence." I love 2 Timothy 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" that's what I want to think of on my death bed. That I have fought a good fight, that I have finished my course, and above all, that I have kept the faith. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 14, 2010 18:34:00 GMT -5
They aren't "defending defending their homes against a foreign invader", they flat out hate us. They hate our liberty, they hate our religion, they hate everything there is to hate about us and so therefore they want to do everything in there power to hurt us. A) They do live there. There is a foreign invader in their land. They are fighting that invader. Those are indisputable facts. B) Who told you that they "hate our liberty and religion and everything about us?" Please be specific and give individual names. Let's determine whether this claim originated from Muslim sources or the US government. Are they literally insane? Do they suffer from clinically diagnosed lunacy? If so, what medical evidence is available to support the contention? Or is this propaganda? Does the manner in which a bomb is carried justify its use? For instance, is a bomb evil when it is carried in a shoe, but righteous when it is carried by an F-16? A) On November 11, 1778, a British force attacked the New York village of Cherry Valley. They slaughtered the inhabitants, butchering them like beef, slicing the heads open of 32 women and children, stripping the men naked and driving them in the snow like cattle until many more died. Captain Alden of the Patriot force had his forehead literally cut in half by a tomahawk. This is but one of hundreds of sick, barbaric acts from the Revolutionary War that spread from New York to the swamps of South Carolina... actions that make 9/11 seem humane. I recommend you brush up on your history. The Bill of Rights was written by people who had just lived through things that you and I cannot possibly imagine. Yet they wrote it anyway, and the law is still the law. B) Even if "honor among men" had somehow magically changed, are you actually offering that as an excuse for violating federal law? Seriously? If so, can the Muslims use the same excuse? I'm sure they consider watching their families being blown to bits by US bombs as dishonorable... so does that excuse their actions? If not, why does it excuse ours? You stand by and watch people get slaughtered, butchered, and blown to bits every day and you actively defend it. This is an absolute fact and you will not dare to deny it. You DO stand by and watch people die. And you cheer on those who kill them. |
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Michael
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Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 14, 2010 19:48:47 GMT -5
They aren't "defending defending their homes against a foreign invader", they flat out hate us. They hate our liberty, they hate our religion, they hate everything there is to hate about us and so therefore they want to do everything in there power to hurt us. A) They do live there. There is a foreign invader in their land. They are fighting that invader. Those are indisputable facts. B) Who told you that they "hate our liberty and religion and everything about us?" Please be specific and give individual names. Let's determine whether this claim originated from Muslim sources or the US government. "They hate our religion". They are MUSLIMS they're "holy book" the koran says to kill Christians. Abet barely, America is still primarily a Christian nation. Does the manner in which a bomb is carried justify its use? For instance, is a bomb evil when it is carried in a shoe, but righteous when it is carried by an F-16? No, but the reason for which said bomb is carried does matter. I recommend you brush up on your history. The Bill of Rights was written by people who had just lived through things that you and I cannot possibly imagine. Yet they wrote it anyway, and the law is still the law. B) Even if "honor among men" had somehow magically changed, are you actually offering that as an excuse for violating federal law? Seriously? If so, can the Muslims use the same excuse? I'm sure they consider watching their families being blown to bits by US bombs as dishonorable... so does that excuse their actions? If not, why does it excuse ours? Our armed forces main goal is to eliminate insurgents and protect civilians, the only reason any iraqi citizens die is because those cowards choose to hide in schools and public buildings using their fellow country men as meatshildes, whether they are willing or not. You stand by and watch people get slaughtered, butchered, and blown to bits every day and you actively defend it. This is an absolute fact and you will not dare to deny it. You DO stand by and watch people die. And you cheer on those who kill them. I still don't see the genocide you say we're committing, if we really wanted iraqi people to die we would've pushed the "big red nuke button", put them in concentration camps and hunted them to extinction years ago, if you can show me any evidence that we've gassed them or randomly selected them for execution I will concede this argument right now. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 14, 2010 22:22:01 GMT -5
"They hate our religion". They are MUSLIMS they're "holy book" the koran says to kill Christians. Again - who told you that the resistance fighters hate our religion? Trace that information to its source, and please give the name(s) of the individual(s) who said it. Let's find out if the source of this data is from the Muslim world or the US government. The Koran instructs followers to "invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." That is not an order to kill Christians. On the contrary, it is an order to deal with them graciously, kindly and gently. Please tell me where the Koran orders Muslims to kill Christians. Then tell me the reason why we're bombing Iraq. 15 of the 19 alleged resistance fighters on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. Not a single one was from Iraq. An "insurgent" is defined as "a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority." Are you suggesting that an invading foreign army was the "lawful authority" of Iraq? From what? Before we arrived, the average civilian had a job, food, fresh water, functional sewage facilities, air conditioning and electricity. Most Iraqis no longer have any of that. What, precisely, were are we "protecting" them from? Would approve if, say, an invading Chinese army were to offer that sort of "protection" to your family? Please see: www.uruknet.info/?p=m10211&l=i&size=1&hd=0Just ignore the civilians who were burned alive by US phosphorous weapons. Look at the body of the dead baby killed by bombs from an American F-16. What actual, concrete evidence do you have that Iraqis are cowards who kill their own women and children? Wait a minute... I thought they wanted to kill OUR women and children? Can't they tell the difference? Of course you don't. We are a nation that specializes in not knowing what we don't want to know. You don't want to know that US forces used poison gas and white phosphorous during the destruction of Fallujah. You don't want to know that US soldiers gang raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl before murdering her, her parents and her 5 year old daughter. You don't want to know that US forces held women hostage in order to force their husbands to surrender... even Hitler's SS didn't do that. You don't want to know that American bombs targeted the water supply of the civilians at Basra, and that US Apache helicopters dropped firebombs on the food supply of Iraqi civilians in numerous locations in order to starve them. You don't want to know that on March 2, 2003, US fighters smashed a Red Crescent Maternity Hospital in Baghdad before turning its bombs on the city's nearby trade fair, killing five more just for good measure by crushing people alive in their automobiles. You didn't know about any of these war crimes - not because the information isn't readily available and demonstrable - you've had seven years to find it and it only takes five minutes. But you didn't know because it is uncomfortable, and makes you guilty of supporting these atrocities. That is the same reason why you will discount them. You will say that they were accidents, isolated incidents, or lies. You will not research the incidents - and hundreds more like them - because you do not want to find the truth. My goal is not to convince you of any other truth. My goal is to make you want to find it. Once you determine to lose all preconceived ideas and seek truth at all costs no mater what it is, I will be satisfied regardless of your conclusions. The evidence is all around you. You are up to your neck in it. But your pre-conceived world view will not allow you the accept it. And this is not an argument... this is a search for truth. It is there for those who want it. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 14, 2010 22:27:32 GMT -5
No, but the reason for which said bomb is carried does matter. BTW, here is something I believe we can agree on. You openly admit that the manner in which a weapon is carried is irrelevant and does not reflect any particular conclusions about the person using it. True? Therefore, can we also agree that it is illogical and propagandistic to refer to someone as an "insane nut case" because they choose to carry their bomb in, for instance, a shoe instead of a plane? If we can agree on that, I suggest that we discontinue the use of propaganda terms such as "insane lunatic," "nut case," or "terrorist." We may disagree on the reasons for which they carry a bomb, but reducing ourselves to name-calling simply because of the manner in which they resist our aggression is irrational. Agreed? |
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Michael
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Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2010 12:42:17 GMT -5
Are we talking about the same people? Aren't these the terrorists who flew passenger jets into the world trade center? Aren't these the terrorists who want to destroy Israel?
I like the way my friend puts it: "America isn't that good at protecting itself, but if someone does hurt us ... Get ready for a storm!"
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Michael
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Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5
No, but the reason for which said bomb is carried does matter. BTW, here is something I believe we can agree on. You openly admit that the manner in which a weapon is carried is irrelevant and does not reflect any particular conclusions about the person using it. True? Therefore, can we also agree that it is illogical and propagandistic to refer to someone as an "insane nut case" because they choose to carry their bomb in, for instance, a shoe instead of a plane? If we can agree on that, I suggest that we discontinue the use of propaganda terms such as "insane lunatic," "nut case," or "terrorist." We may disagree on the reasons for which they carry a bomb, but reducing ourselves to name-calling simply because of the manner in which they resist our aggression is irrational. Agreed? Ok, when you start flying planes into buildings then you can be classified as a "nut case". |
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Michael
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Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
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Post by Michael on Feb 15, 2010 14:47:35 GMT -5
Various koran verses pertaining to killing Christians:
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,
[17.10] And that (as for) those who do not believe in the hereafter, We have prepared for them a painful chastisement.
[17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.
[48.13] And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 16, 2010 11:11:44 GMT -5
Various koran verses pertaining to killing Christians: [47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, Various Bible verses pertaining to killing non-Christians: Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. (Joshua 10:40) Do Christians not also believe in a painful chastisement for those who do not believe in the hereafter? How hypocritical can we possibly be? How on earth does this pertain to Christians? And how is this any worse than the Biblical order to kill unbelievers in Deut. 20:16... "Do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them." Rev. 20: 15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Sounds mighty similar, doesn't it? Like you, I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. There are MANY instances in scripture when Christians are ordered by God to kill unbelievers. But you and I would both agree that not one of those verses actually orders us to kill Muslims today. Why do we not have the intellectual honestly to read the Koran in the same way? Not one single Koran passage above actually tells a Muslim to kill an American, yet you offer this as justification for the war and destruction we have visited on their lands. If we can read the Koran in such a way as to justify the killing of 400,000 Muslims, why can they not read the Bible in such as way as to justify flying a jet into a skyscraper and killing 3,000? Could they not interpret the same threat from our Bible? Why do we so easily excuse Biblical orders to kill, yet we take any reference whatsoever in the Koran as an immediate death threat? There is a tidal wave of hypocrisy sweeping American churches. We accuse others of what we do ourselves. We kill others for reasons that we refuse to allow them to adopt as well. Instead of turning Christianity into the religion of hypocrisy, we should stop for a moment and consider other points of view. We support the Muslims' prime enemy and antagonist, Israel. We bomb their cities and kill their families. We destroy their nation and take over their government. We do so in the name of God, defending Israel, and saving ourselves from the Muslim hoards when in fact, not a single Iraqi ever attacked America on 9/11. The tidal wave of hypocrisy of the Christian church in America is an embarrassment to God Almighty. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 16, 2010 11:12:43 GMT -5
Are we talking about the same people? Aren't these the terrorists who flew passenger jets into the world trade center? Aren't these the terrorists who want to destroy Israel? I like the way my friend puts it: "America isn't that good at protecting itself, but if someone does hurt us ... Get ready for a storm!" Once again, you reply only with cliches and emotionalism and fail to respond to any of the questions of self-examination I asked. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 16, 2010 11:32:16 GMT -5
Ok, when you start flying planes into buildings then you can be classified as a "nut case". Why? You are responding emotionally and making no sense at all. Stop. Think. It is idiotic to expect resistance fighters to combat us with tanks in formal battle lines. They would be crushed. Why do we expect them to fight a form of warfare that guarantees their loss? Do we require our enemies to be stupid? They have to find effective ways of bringing warfare against us. They have done so brilliantly. They fight an underground, guerrilla warfare, much like the American Patriots in the southern theater of the American War for Independence. They rise and strike, then disappear back into the countryside. Like Francis Marion and Henry Lee of the Patriot Army in 1781, the resistance fighters today supply their own food, transportation and arms. Like the Continental Army of 1776, they fight defensively for their homes and land... they did not invade anyone else's nation. And like George Washington, they find ways to win. That's why the Founding Fathers were considered the "terrorists" of their day by the British. It is inconceivably ridiculous to ridicule Muslim and Iraqi resistance fighters for flying airplanes into skyscrapers. 9/11 was a highly advanced, well planned, and well executed military strike against the US economy. It worked. Our economy has been sinking like the Titanic ever since. And they did it with far fewer civilian casualties than we have inflicted upon them. So who are the real "terrorists?" Flying a plane into a building does not make them "nut cases." On the contrary, it makes them smarter than us. Other than travel costs and training, their attack cost them nothing. To wreak the same amount of damage on them, we must drop tens of millions of dollars in bombs from planes that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. So who's smarter? If you take your emotions out of the situation and use only your logic, you'll see that it is ridiculous to fault someone for employing an effective strategy. So why do you accuse them of being "nut cases?" |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 16, 2010 11:37:45 GMT -5
SEEK TRUTH. Put aside your emotions and biases.
Truth is not American. Truth is not Muslim. Truth is truth and it does not care who you are or where you came from.
Develop the ability to see all sides of an issue.
"Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding... preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight."
SEEK TRUTH.
Eliminate hypocrisy and double standards.
Re-examine everything you ever thought you knew. "Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart."
For every idea, thought or concept, demand to know "is it true? By what evidence? From what source?"
SEEK TRUTH at all costs.
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noski
Captain
"Richthofen lived where the rest of us go , only in our greatest moments." Udet
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Post by noski on Feb 16, 2010 15:31:13 GMT -5
The quotes from Joshua and Deut. are from the Jewish bible. There were no Christians around at the time they were written. Just making a point. I agree with Stephen on almost everything he's saying. Just my .02 worth.
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Michael
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Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
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Post by Michael on Feb 16, 2010 15:46:54 GMT -5
Like you, I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. There are MANY instances in scripture when Christians are ordered by God to kill unbelievers. But you and I would both agree that not one of those verses actually orders us to kill Muslims today. Correct, this is called dispensationalism. |
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