Michael and the Underwear Bomber!

[noski]

In Ken's Tag Line, you stated flatly that, no where in the bible does it OK slavery. I responded with...Deut. 20:10-12 "When you march up to a city, first offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to your terms and opens its gates to you, all people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor but if it refuses ...lay siege to it and when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands,put every male to the sword." I then quoted Josh 9:23 " For this you are accursed , every one of you shall always be a slave(hewer of wood and drawers of water) for the house of my God."
Because these verses proved you wrong you responded with dismisiveness...and I quote "the Bible is telling Dan to march to a city(let's say detroit), offer terms of peace, then capture slaves for forced labor(kill all the males...no guns either..you must use the "sword"). You can use everyone else to hew wood and draw water. From your bathroom sink. By Biblical command. Okay? We good now?..." Then to Michael, to show him how silly he looks quoting death threats to Christians in the Koran, you quote supposed anti-Christian statements in Deut. and Josh. from the Jewish Bible. (they wrote theirs first) . No Christians back then. Anyway, you say the bible is infallable unless YOU decide it's not apparently , from what I'm reading now.
You also state , the bible has MANY (your capitals) antiChristians messages in it. Any in the New Testament? You must be able to come up with one or two if there are so MANY.

To Michael..."Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain ! "
Wizard of Oz 1939

[Michael]

Feb 18, 2010 10:58:56 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Feb 17, 2010 10:44:32 GMT -5 Michael said:

Stephen, the Judges of Israel were a form of government!

Then we agree completely, don't we?

I fully support private leadership, private arbitration, and the ability of the individual to choose their leaders as did the ancient Jews under their privately chosen and selected judges.

If that's what you are referring to as "government," then we agree.

Great! I'm glad this argument is over! (big sigh)

[Stephen]

Feb 18, 2010 12:49:10 GMT -5 noski said:

Stephen,
You can go on for pages , pontificating the "infallible" word of God.

Where was I pontificating to you about anything? I wasn't even talking to you, Dan. I was talking to Michael. I didn't even know you were following this thread until a few posts ago. You're kinda freaking out here.

If you won't respond, why should I believe anything else you are saying?

I never asked you to believe anything. I wasn't even talking to you. Relax, man.

Take your own advise to Michael.
Answer the question.
Why are there 2 times given for the crucifixtion of Jesus in the Holy Gospels?

If you're going to try to make an issue out of this, at least get it right.

No, the Bible does not give two times for the crucifixion. Three of the gospels give no time at all. Only Mark gives a time - the "third hour." But the "third hour" of what?

Most scholars believe this to be a reference to Canonical time, which fixed prayer hours at roughly 6am, 9am, noon, 3pm, etc. This practice was not truly Jewish, but compelled by the Roman practice of scheduling one's business day. The times were not exact; they were approximate.

Since Jerusalem was a major Jewish city under Roman rule, it is likely (but not demonstrable) that the "third hour" was intended to indicate a time somewhere early in the 9am-noon Canonical slot.

Now to John. No, John does not give a time for the crucifixion. However, John does claim that Jesus was with Pilate at "about" the "sixth hour." The "sixth hour" of what? If one assumes again that this is a reference to Canonical time, then Jesus' time with Pilate overlaps the crucifixion time given (yes, actually given) by Mark.

So yes, I do see a potential conflict here and I personally believe that Canonical times are probably the times used in scripture.

On the other hand, one could say that, in a time before watches or time calculation as we know it, that Mark and John both generally place the final presentation of Jesus to the Jews and the beginning of his crucifixion sometime in the late morning hours, give or take 90 minutes, and then focus on what the book is really about. But that would be no fun at all, and I'm afraid intelligent discourse dies here.

We are far better off claiming precise Canonical hours with exact times as verified by Jerusalem's Discount Rolex Outlet, thus proving that the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God, that Dan is absolutely right, and the Bible is nothing but fairytales, contradictions and hypocrisy.

So there you go.

I have tried many, many times to answer your questions. Do not pretend that there has been no effort on my part. There has. Every time you bring up a new "contradiction" I try to answer it. You then reject that answer - no matter what it is - and bring up a new "contradiction."

So don't ever hit me with the "Answer my question!" demand again. I have done so a thousand times and would gladly do so again if it were linked to a useful discussion, but I am not your personal puppet that spouts whatever answer you want upon your demand.

The only answer that will satisfy you is the one you had chosen all along. The Bible is so full of unbelievable, inexplicable hypocrisies that its own authors cannot even come within three hours of the time that its own fake, false hero was executed, and I just proved it for you, and we haven't even started on the fake order of creation, the phony geneology of Jesus, the impregnation of Mary by a Roman soldier, the death of Judas, who was seen at the tomb or who Seth's wife was.

[Stephen]

And if you want to continue this tangent, please start a thread for it. This is distracting from the topic.

[Stephen]

Great! I'm glad this argument is over! (big sigh)

Over? You never even started.

One day you will have to face Luke 4. One day you will have to face the reality that as a bureaucrat, you are living off earnings stolen from others.

One day you will have to face that the very government you serve imprisons more people than any other nation on earth, tortures its victims and kills tens of thousands in wars against nations that did not attack it.

Avoiding your conscience will prove far more difficult than avoiding questions on a computer screen. This is not over, Michael. It has not even started.

[Michael]

@ noski.
One word, dispensationlism. PM pastor Kevin, he'll give you a run down of the whole thing.

And to Stephen.

This is completely pointless.
I'm not arguing with you anymore.
You can't persuade me, I can't persuade you.
We both have verses to support our own thesis, neither of our positions can get above the other.
You'll have to face Matthew 22:21 and Isaiah 9:6-7 just as much as I have to face Luke 4.
You can continue arguing, I'll just ignore it.
And who says I can't be the next Ron Paul?
I feel God is calling me to politics, whether or not this is true I have yet to see, and if it is true I plan to serve Him for as long as He needs me to.

God bless.

[Stephen]

Feb 19, 2010 23:43:10 GMT -5 Michael said:

You can continue arguing, I'll just ignore it.

a) That's what you've been doing all along.

b) "Argument" is defined as "an oral attempt to convince or persuade." I have done neither. What I have done is encouraged you to re-examine your position and seek truth even if it conflicts with your pre-conceived ideology, as Proverbs repeatedly instructs.

c) A person who openly boasts "You won't persuade me!" is not seeking truth and has no need for it.

[Michael]

Feb 20, 2010 16:01:55 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Feb 19, 2010 23:43:10 GMT -5 Michael said:

You can continue arguing, I'll just ignore it.

a) That's what you've been doing all along.

b) "Argument" is defined as "an oral attempt to convince or persuade." I have done neither. What I have done is encouraged you to re-examine your position and seek truth even if it conflicts with your pre-conceived ideology, as Proverbs repeatedly instructs.

c) A person who openly boasts "You won't persuade me!" is not seeking truth and has no need for it.

The only thing you have tried to "encourage" me to do is question parts of the Bible, This is something I will not do.
Your continuing hatred towards government blinds you to the fact that there were God-ordained governments.
America was God-ordained, and now people who hate God have worked their way into the system, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO CHANGE.

There is still hope that this country can be taken back to what it once was, I plan to help do that.

Your hatred has blinded you to see is that government in it self is not evil, the people who run it are.

People are not good enough to stay away from sin like you think they are, there has to be some punishment looming over them, There has to be a RESTRAINED government to do this. Otherwise the guy with the biggest gun makes the rules, and then you get a military dictatorship.

I'd take a democracy over that any day.

The world you envision the the polar opposite of what commies want. You want a world where no one is beholden to anything, except the Lord.
People are sinners, they refuse to see God, therefore most are inadvertently inclined to do evil things, you know that.
Just think about if the president came on C-PAC today and says that the US government is disbanded, and that everything, from the Declaration of Independence to the most currant law is now void. Think what would happen.

I hope you see the truth now that people need a government, this is a undeniable FACT.

[phoenix]

Howdy all,

Stephen Dale here. I found this little thread quite interesting so I thought I'd join the 'ol forum.

Hey Michael, I have a question, you stated:

I hope you see the truth now that people need a government, this is a undeniable FACT.

If'n you don't mind my asking. Why? Why exactly do we need a government?

Thank ya

(this will eventually link back to the original post that started the whole thread, I just want to familiarize myself with Michael's principles without making assumptions from his previous posts.)
SD

[Stephen]

Feb 20, 2010 17:00:18 GMT -5 Michael said:

The only thing you have tried to "encourage" me to do is question parts of the Bible, This is something I will not do.

You have no choice.

God told Malachi to "'Test me in this,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven.'" Jesus ordered Thomas not to be afraid to see if he was truly alive... to go ahead and thrust his hand into his side. Moses, Jonah, the list goes on and on.

Do not be afraid to question your faith. You have no choice anyway... your own Bible orders you to do so. Do not fear. Your faith will stand up to the test. And if it doesn't, its not worth having.

There is still hope that this country can be taken back to what it once was, I plan to help do that.

You said "People need government to tell them what to do." That belief does NOT take us back to where we once were.

That groaning sound you hear is Thomas Jefferson rolling over in his grave. If you believe that government's job is to "tell people what to do," you would not have fought with the founding fathers. They would have run you out of town on a rail.

The reality is that your beliefs would have made you a staunch Tory, defending the "God-ordained" government against Washington, Madison, Henry and the other radical terrorists.

Your hatred has blinded you

Is there the slightest possibility that you, as a young teenager, could, perhaps, maybe, possibly MIGHT not have all the answers, and that you, in fact, are the blind one?

Does that possibility even remotely exist in your mind?

There has to be a RESTRAINED government

The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to restrain government.

Yet you've already proclaimed your support for allowing government to blatantly violate every sentence of the Bill of Rights to torture and kill people without so much as a trial.

How is that "restraining government?"

Just think about if the president came on C-PAC today and says that the US government is disbanded, and that everything, from the Declaration of Independence to the most currant law is now void. Think what would happen.

We would be free. But you would be cowering in a corner, frightened and afraid, and would only learn about your freedom years later when you came out of hiding.

I hope you see the truth now that people need a government, this is a undeniable FACT.

If it were undeniable, I would not be denying it right now. Therefore, by definition, it is not "undeniable."

And it is not fact, either. It is your opinion, which you refuse to cross examine, question or test although scripture repeatedly orders you to do so.

Seek truth, Michael. It is not an option. It is a biblical command.

[Michael]

Feb 20, 2010 22:05:20 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Feb 20, 2010 17:00:18 GMT -5 Michael said:

The only thing you have tried to "encourage" me to do is question parts of the Bible, This is something I will not do.

You have no choice.

God told Malachi to "'Test me in this,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven.'" Jesus ordered Thomas not to be afraid to see if he was truly alive... to go ahead and thrust his hand into his side. Moses, Jonah, the list goes on and on.

Do not be afraid to question your faith. You have no choice anyway... your own Bible orders you to do so. Do not fear. Your faith will stand up to the test. And if it doesn't, its not worth having.


You said "People need government to tell them what to do." That belief does NOT take us back to where we once were.

That groaning sound you hear is Thomas Jefferson rolling over in his grave. If you believe that government's job is to "tell people what to do," you would not have fought with the founding fathers. They would have run you out of town on a rail.

The reality is that your beliefs would have made you a staunch Tory, defending the "God-ordained" government against Washington, Madison, Henry and the other radical terrorists.

Is there the slightest possibility that you, as a young teenager, could, perhaps, maybe, possibly MIGHT not have all the answers, and that you, in fact, are the blind one?

Does that possibility even remotely exist in your mind?

The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to restrain government.

Yet you've already proclaimed your support for allowing government to blatantly violate every sentence of the Bill of Rights to torture and kill people without so much as a trial.

How is that "restraining government?"

We would be free. But you would be cowering in a corner, frightened and afraid, and would only learn about your freedom years later when you came out of hiding.

I hope you see the truth now that people need a government, this is a undeniable FACT.

If it were undeniable, I would not be denying it right now. Therefore, by definition, it is not "undeniable."

And it is not fact, either. It is your opinion, which you refuse to cross examine, question or test although scripture repeatedly orders you to do so.

Seek truth, Michael. It is not an option. It is a biblical command.

People are evil. Why can't you see that? And free we may be, but who's to stop thieves, drug traffickers, murderers, etcetera. Who's to stop them?
And in the chapter you keep going back to, Luke 4, Jesus says to the devil "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." So I'd rather not.
You keep telling me to seek truth, have you tried it yourself?

[Michael]

Feb 20, 2010 20:09:49 GMT -5 phoenix said:

Howdy all,

Stephen Dale here. I found this little thread quite interesting so I thought I'd join the 'ol forum.

Hey Michael, I have a question, you stated:

I hope you see the truth now that people need a government, this is a undeniable FACT.

If'n you don't mind my asking. Why? Why exactly do we need a government?

Thank ya

(this will eventually link back to the original post that started the whole thread, I just want to familiarize myself with Michael's principles without making assumptions from his previous posts.)
SD

I don't know how many times I've said this over the past few days, so I'll let you answer the question. If the US government was dismissed today, who's to stop the riff-raff from exploiting the fact that now, they don't have to answer to anybody? When the military is gone what's to stop russia or china from mearlly walking in and saying "do what we say, or die."?

Think about it.

Evil people need correction looming at the back of their head, that's why there has to be, however little, a government to carry the correction out.
People need government for protection, from common criminals and terrorists, to russia and the other marxists countries.

I always think worst case scenarios.

I'm not supporting the government as it is now, in fact I hate it.
I wish it was more like a just guard dog for us and our allies, ready to defend us from any one who threatens us. If it were like that I wouldn't mind paying taxes.
I do mind paying taxes for stem cell research, that's why I want to go and make a difference. If enough good people want to get rid of something they can, IF THEY WORK TOGETHER.

I hope that sheds some light on my view of government.

[Michael]

And Stephen I'm not saying I'm perfect, but it's just as easy for you to miss some facts just as easy as it is for me. We're probably both blind in some respects.

[phoenix]

Michael,

Dude. chillax. I didn't want to answer the question myself, I didn't want to risk an assumption, I wanted to hear your views from your own mouth.

Since I didn't get the "We need government because..." answer I was hoping for I think what you're saying is:

We need government because no one can protect us if we don't have one.

Is that right? Because I'm going to work from that since you told me to answer the question. Based on this assumption I'm going to make my next post in response to this view. Ok?

[phoenix]

if you guys didn't know before the underwear bomber clammed up he did tell the authorities that "there are more coming, I trained with them" and they got that out of him with standard "I ask a question you answer" interrogation. I care more about innocent American citizens than nut job terrorists who don't deserve enough respect to even be considered a "man at arms" so if you and your psychopath buddies are gonna try to blow up my brothers I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that you don't.
So give them these options: You don't tell us who and where your co-conspirators are and you stay in prison for a while and then get the death shot, or, you can tell us who and where your co-conspirators are and you stay in prison for life. Because that's what these scumbags deserve, they're not American citizens they should not be treated as so

This is the orginal post that started the conversation, the excerpt below was pulled from London's THE GUARDIAN newspaper.
(link here:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/30/alqaida.september11)

I have included it on the forum here for you. Just thought you'd want a direct reference. Please read it carefully for me, thanx

The following are excerpts from a speech by Osama bin Laden addressing the American people in a videotape, parts of which were aired by al-Jazeera television yesterday, as translated by Reuters


O American people, I am speaking to tell you about the ideal way to avoid another Manhattan, about war and its causes and results.

Security is an important foundation of human life and free people do not squander their security, contrary to Bush's claims that we hate freedom. Let him tell us why we did not attack Sweden for example.

It is known that those who hate freedom do not possess proud souls like those of the 19, may God rest their souls. We fought you because we are free and because we want freedom for our nation. When you squander our security we squander your's.

I'm surprised by you. Despite entering the fourth year after September 11, Bush is still deceiving you and hiding the truth from you and therefore the reasons are still there to repeat what happened.

God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed - when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the US sixth fleet.

In those difficult moments many emotions came over me which are hard to describe, but which produced an overwhelming feeling to reject injustice and a strong determination to punish the unjust.

As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way [and] to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.

We had no difficulty in dealing with Bush and his administration because they resemble the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half by the sons of kings ... They have a lot of pride, arrogance, greed and thievery.

[Bush] adopted despotism and the crushing of freedoms from Arab rulers _ called it the Patriot Act under the guise of combating terrorism ...

We had agreed with [the September 11] overall commander, Mohammed Atta, may God rest his soul, to carry out all operations in 20 minutes before Bush and his administration take notice.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American forces [Bush] would leave 50,000 citizens in the two towers to face those horrors alone at a time when they most needed him because he thought listening to a child discussing her goat and its ramming was more important than the planes and their ramming of the skyscrapers. This had given us three times the time needed to carry out the operations, thanks be to God ...

Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential candidate John] Kerry or Bush or al-Qaida. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe.