Michael and the Underwear Bomber!

[Michael]

Forgive me, I misunderstood the reason for this argument. I'm still not willing to think that 9/11 was planned for any other reason that to kill US citizens. (come on, the economy was going down anyway)
I will concede the fact that AmeriKa is evil, I still believe there is hope for America.
In the future I'll be in politics , because that's how I can make a difference. (Planing for it already. When I'm in an argument with dad he'll say "quit avoiding the question senator", at least once. )

[Stephen]

Feb 16, 2010 16:20:53 GMT -5 Michael said:

Forgive me, I misunderstood the reason for this argument.

I am not arguing. I am pursuing truth and inviting you to join me.

I'm still not willing to think that 9/11 was planned for any other reason that to kill US citizens. (come on, the economy was going down anyway)

And of course, Iraqis are unwilling to believe that a US invasion of their nation was not planned for any other reason than to kill their families and steal their oil.

Whether this is true is not the point... the point is this - there IS another point of view that could be just as valid as our own.

In the future I'll be in politics , because that's how I can make a difference. (Planing for it already. When I'm in an argument with dad he'll say "quit avoiding the question senator", at least once. )

Just remember that according to Luke 4, working for the government places you in the direct, personal employment of Satan himself in the most literal sense.

Also remember that you will be living off of the productivity that was stolen from your neighbors under threat of violence. There is no way to live off the earnings of others in a Godly manner. It is an inherent contradiction and hypocrisy.

There are a very, very few people who can work for a Satanic system and manage to do some good. Ron Paul is the only one who actually has done so in our age. Its like charging hell with a squirt gun. I admire your courage and I wish you the best, but the overwhelming odds are that you will not change Satan, but he will change you.

I sincerely hope I am wrong.

If you wish to continue pursuing truth, I recommend you that directly answer some of the simple, straightforward questions that I posed here. If you continue avoiding them, you will be just like every other politician working within Satan's earthly system. You need to directly address every individual question and continually re-examine your own position as you do so.

[Michael]

Feb 16, 2010 18:56:25 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Just remember that according to Luke 4, working for the government places you in the direct, personal employment of Satan himself in the most literal sense.

Also remember that you will be living off of the productivity that was stolen from your neighbors under threat of violence. There is no way to live off the earnings of others in a Godly manner. It is an inherent contradiction and hypocrisy.

There are a very, very few people who can work for a Satanic system and manage to do some good. Ron Paul is the only one who actually has done so in our age. Its like charging hell with a squirt gun. I admire your courage and I wish you the best, but the overwhelming odds are that you will not change Satan, but he will change you.

I sincerely hope I am wrong.

If you wish to continue pursuing truth, I recommend you that directly answer some of the simple, straightforward questions that I posed here. If you continue avoiding them, you will be just like every other politician working within Satan's earthly system. You need to directly address every individual question and continually re-examine your own position as you do so.

People need a structured government, without it who's to tell any one what to do? Whoever has the biggest gun will be in charge.

There is a form of government in the house, the father is the head of the household, he in a sense "rules" the house the children obey him, his wife respects him.

And if government is evil why did God create one for the Israelites and personally chose the king? Would God associate with what is evil?

Jesus said this about the Roman empire:

Matthew 22:21- And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

And one day, Christ will Himself rule a government!

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Would the Son rule something that is supposedly ruled by satin?

[Stephen]

Feb 16, 2010 20:36:35 GMT -5 Michael said:

People need a structured government, without it who's to tell any one what to do?

The thought that you intend to go into government work for the sole purpose of telling others what to do is not only frightening, it is a direct threat to freedom and liberty.

And if government is evil why did God create one for the Israelites and personally chose the king?

For centuries the Israelites had lived in freedom as God intended with only a series of privately employed judges who arbitrated situations between private parties with a solid record of success.

God did not create the Israelite government, or any other. In fact, God vehemently opposed it and warned them clearly that installing a government was idolatry, and they would end up as slaves to their own idol. I Samuel 8 records God's words to Israel:

"This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.

He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.

When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

God most certainly did not create Israel's government. He did everything he could do to discourage their idolatry, but allowed them to have their way in the end.

And even if God had at one time supported Israel's government, he had clearly turned over its rotting corpse to Satan in Luke 4.

Jesus said this about the Roman empire:

Matthew 22:21- And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus with an unanswerable question. They asked, "Are we to pay taxes to Ceasar?" which, of course, was a wicked nation that had invaded and overrun their land (much like the US government of today).

If Jesus had responded "yes," he would have been betraying the Jews and siding with the Roman invaders and his reputation and ministry would be destroyed.

If he answered "no," they could turn him over the Roman politicians and had him imprisoned or killed as a protester against Roman rule.

Either way, the Pharisees won. Jesus, however, outsmarted them and refused to fall into their trap.

Any attempt to use this as a proof text for government or taxes completely misses the entire point of the conversation and is a gross example of misusing scripture by taking it out of context and corrupting its original meaning.

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Would the Son rule something that is supposedly ruled by satin?

"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end?" Are you kidding? He never took control of that government. And there was no peace - they were under military occupation! And his government was certainly not increasing... the Romans were continually debasing their currency, overruling local Jewish laws, and revisiting the legal decisions of their Sadducee councils.

Obviously, this is prophetic and has nothing whatsoever to do with earthly government and once again, we are taking a passage wildly out of context and corrupting its original meaning.

The simply fact is that Satan stood before before Jesus, showed him all the governments of the world, and said ""I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to."

Jesus did not challenge the statement. That alone speaks volumes. Satan was right and Jesus knew it. The earthly authorities had indeed been turned over entirely to Satan, and yes, he could give them to anyone he wanted.

The governments of the world do indeed belong to Satan personally and they do his work. They are an extension of his presence on earth, just like the church is (supposed to be) an extension of Christ on earth.

It is no coincidence that after God's perfect creation was complete, God was the sole ruler and earthly government was non-existent. It is no coincidence that in the end times under the anti-Christ, government will rule the earth and God will be virtually non-existent here.

It is no coincidence that governments accomplish more of Satan's work than any demon could ever hope.

Governments killed more than 100 million people in the 20th century alone, not including ANY war casualties.

Governments like China and the US legalize, support and encourage the mass murder of abortion.

Governments steal from nearly every single family on the face of the earth daily.

Governments worldwide restrict missionaries, regulate churches, persecute Christians and torture or kill resisters.

No power on earth could ever hope to accomplish as much for Satan as human government. It is his best servant and his primary weapon. Government will form his earthly kingdom during the Tribulation. Government will fight for him at Armageddon. Without government, Satan is fatally crippled and loses his death grip over the planet.

Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

[Stephen]

Michael, I do not believe that you are genuinely seeking truth.

In order to seek truth, you must first sacrifice everything you think you know. But instead, you are defending everything you think you know. You refuse to answer even the most basic, honest, straightforward questions. You have not read the Bill of Rights and didn't even know the fundamental story behind the genesis of the Israeli government.

Remember, I have not asked you to change your position on a single issue. I have only asked you to seek the truth.

You are not seeking - you are defending.

Stop it.

Empty your mind.

"Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts."

Ask yourself these questions and force yourself to answer truthfully:

- If Jesus was not the Son of God, would you really want to know?
- If everything you ever believed was a lie, would you really want to know?
- If you are being complicit in the mass murder of thousands who had never harmed you, would you really want to know?

These are hard questions. But scripture teaches us to constantly re-examine ourselves, our beliefs and our thoughts. We are to seek wisdom and truth at all costs.

You are not doing that. You are too busy defending your position.

It is not important whether you agree with me. What is important is that you make a life habit of seeking truth AT ALL COSTS, even if it destroys many of the things you hold dear.

Then, as Jesus said, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

[noski]

Stephen,
I am suprised to hear you say that governments are the tool of satan. Somewhere on this forum, when I stated that GW bush would pardon all criminals sentenced to death if he were truly a Christian, you responded with a unclear quote from Jesus saying that Jesus himself OKd capital punishment. Not attacking you, just wondering where the change of heart came from. As far as the Christian Bible being the infalable word of God, how can one gospel say that Jesus was crucified before noon and another say he was crucified at noon? And the story of Mary Magdalene being a prostitute does not appear in any bible before the middle ages. You BELIEVE the Bible is infallible. People believe in yetis and fairies too.Belief is not fact. Belief is not truth. All books of 'faith' are a crap-shoot. As Pilate said..."Who's truth? Yours or mine?"

[Stephen]

Feb 17, 2010 8:40:26 GMT -5 noski said:

Somewhere on this forum, when I stated that GW bush would pardon all criminals sentenced to death if he were truly a Christian, you responded with a unclear quote from Jesus saying that Jesus himself OKd capital punishment. Not attacking you, just wondering where the change of heart came from.

Not sure I expressed myself clearly to begin with.

I don't believe Jesus was ever recorded as saying he supported capital punishment. There is certainly no support to be found for it in the New Testament anywhere. However, the Bible does record that in ancient Israel (long before the existence of the Israeli government, which was established against God's wishes), capital punishment was practiced for a variety of sins - not crimes against the life or property of others, but sins.

If one is to rely upon the Biblical account of ancient Israel for support of capital punishment, one must also accept that executions are to be performed privately rather than by government. Government did not exist at the time and restitution and various forms of punishment were hired out privately.

So according to scripture, I do not believe in government assassinations or executions. The very existence of government is idolatry and an affront to God himself, and every act committed by it is in service to Satan according to Luke 4.

However, I do believe in capital punishment in extremely rare cases when it is not performed by a nation-state.

Regarding people on the government's "death row" today... the vast majority of them are there for political reasons and should be set free. The fate of the remainder should be decided by their victims.

Further, every Christian should demand that all prisons be forever closed. The Bible supports some forms of capital punishment, corporal punishment and restitution. There is no other Biblical form of punishment; and certainly not the throwing of humans into cages. It is a sick, barbaric practice created by a Satanic institution and has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

As far as the Christian Bible being the infalable word of God, how can one gospel say that Jesus was crucified before noon and another say he was crucified at noon? And the story of Mary Magdalene being a prostitute does not appear in any bible before the middle ages. You BELIEVE the Bible is infallible. People believe in yetis and fairies too.Belief is not fact. Belief is not truth. All books of 'faith' are a crap-shoot.

Yes, I am aware of your position on the topic.

As Pilate said..."Who's truth? Yours or mine?"

There is no such thing as "your" truth or "my" truth. There is only THE truth.

[Michael]

Stephen, the Judges of Israel were a form of government! Anything with a leader in place is a form of government Isaiah 9:6-7 is referring to a time after this world has passed on, it will still be a government which Christ is ruling. Heck even the Godhead is a form of government. The Son is under the authority of the Father.

Matthew 26:39 - He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

Maybe your definition of government is different than mine, But if satin rules all governments than he rules God, this is NOT possible.

[Michael]

@ noski

Think about Christianity this way. If you're right, well go ahead and say "I told you so". But if you're wrong......

[noski]

Stephen,
You are aware of my my position on holy books yet you have no rebutal to the two fallible facts I have pointed to in the Christian Bible. The Josh. and Deut. quotes you used earlier were written before there were Christians. How can they be anti Christian? No reply from you. You challenge Michael's belief of Jesus' divinity as if it is an absolute fact. It is not. There is proof in writing if you would care to look.(which is exactly what you are asking Michael to do) You take from the Jewish faith by quoting Jewish text and putting a Christian spin on it and think nothing of it. I challenge the validity of the the bible and I'm the Antichristian (by looking at Mike's reply to me anyway) Hmmm...
Anyway, you could have made the same case about the US government w/o ever bringing religion into it and still been correct.
No religion has a lock on morality

[Michael]

Feb 17, 2010 16:06:29 GMT -5 noski said:

Stephen,
You are aware of my my position on holy books yet you have no rebutal to the two fallible facts I have pointed to in the Christian Bible. The Josh. and Deut. quotes you used earlier were written before there were Christians. How can they be anti Christian? No reply from you. You challenge Michael's belief of Jesus' divinity as if it is an absolute fact. It is not. There is proof in writing if you would care to look.(which is exactly what you are asking Michael to do) You take from the Jewish faith by quoting Jewish text and putting a Christian spin on it and think nothing of it. I challenge the validity of the the bible and I'm the Antichristian (by looking at Mike's reply to me anyway) Hmmm...
Anyway, you could have made the same case about the US government w/o ever bringing religion into it and still been correct.
No religion has a lock on morality

Not all of the Bible was written in the context of the Jewish faith, when Jesus came He changed everything, and Paul went futher by leting it be known that Gentiles could be saved and old Jewish pratices were no longer needed, this is dispensationlism in action.

And I didn't say you were antiChristian, you should think about becoming one.

[Stephen]

Feb 17, 2010 10:44:32 GMT -5 Michael said:

Stephen, the Judges of Israel were a form of government!

Then we agree completely, don't we?

I fully support private leadership, private arbitration, and the ability of the individual to choose their leaders as did the ancient Jews under their privately chosen and selected judges.

If that's what you are referring to as "government," then we agree.

If you're claiming that Luke 4 is wrong, that scripture is wrong, that I Sam 8 is wrong, and that the organizations generally known as "governments" on earth are not purely Satanic, then we do not agree.

At first, you accepted the latter as "government." Now you suggest that the former is "government," ignoring the vast differences in principle between them. You need to make up your mind what you're debating.

if satin rules all governments than he rules God, this is NOT possible.

That is not for you or I to say.

God gave the power of government to Satan. That is clearly recorded in Luke. Within that limited realm, yes, God does cede rule to Satan by choice.

And remember, it was God's choice to do this, not ours. Whether you and I like it or not is irrelevant. Earthly governments are under the personal control of Satan as explicitly stated in scripture.

[Stephen]

Feb 17, 2010 16:06:29 GMT -5 noski said:

Stephen,
You are aware of my my position on holy books yet you have no rebutal to the two fallible facts I have pointed to in the Christian Bible. The Josh. and Deut. quotes you used earlier were written before there were Christians. How can they be anti Christian? No reply from you.

We've been through this before, Dan. I'm not going to try and argue you into accepting things and I'm not going to present them on demand every time. Yes, there are answers to your questions. No, you do not accept them. That's okay. You don't have to.

Anyway, you could have made the same case about the US government w/o ever bringing religion into it and still been correct.

When speaking with a Christian, they will invariably protect their opinions by attempting to claim that the murderous, stealing, corrupt governments now polluting the earth are somehow representative of "God's authority." It is a standard, pat answer. Every Christian is indoctrinated in that myth from birth by IRS certified, state-incorporated, 501c3-licensed "churches."

If you are speaking to a Christian about government, you must be able to address those concerns. When I'm speaking to a non-Christian about government, there is no need to address them.

No religion has a lock on morality

Wow. That came out of the blue. Not sure where that originated, but it certainly wasn't from this conversation.

[Stephen]

"Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding."

"If you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God."

Michael, my suggestion that you seek truth at all costs has been the most ignored post on this entire thread. Your silence on the matter is deafening.

Are you seeking truth, constantly challenging and re-examining your beliefs, and testing your own theories in a relentless pursuit of truth at all costs, as scripture instructs you to do? If so, this will become a very beneficial conversation for both of us.

Or are you simply defending what you already believe? I have no interest in such a conversation and neither should you.

Answer the question.

[noski]

Stephen,
You can go on for pages , pontificating the "infallible" word of God. I challenge you on one little issue about the time of the Crucifiction and you got nothing! When I point out the antiChristian texts you quoted were written before Christ existed you got nothing! The 'truth' is , Mary Magdelene was never a prostitute. Again , you got nothing in response.
If you won't respond, why should I believe anything else you are saying?
Take your own advise to Michael.
Answer the question.
Why are there 2 times given for the crucifixtion of Jesus in the Holy Gospels?
A nswer the question!!