So whats the status?

[gblemings]

so, what is the status of the 8th edition game?

[Stephen]

Last I heard was that Mike was noncommital and casually mused that it might come out in two or three years. That was five years ago. It is slowly coming together, though. I think we probably have most of the 8th edition now in piecemeal form. The biggest plus of the 8th will be the new players it may draw in as the game is re-marketed.

Perhaps the biggest minus of the game is the fact that it attempts to blend two irreconcilable philosophies of the game - the freeze frame philosophy and the flow philosophy.

One of the many rules in the game that depends on which philosophy you choose is the SE 5 Lewis gun house rule from Madison, which states that the Lewis gun can only be tilted upward to fire defensively if the attacking EA approaches from one of the front three squares. This is an alteration of the original rule which had no such restriction.

I don't like the Madison rule, but I do understand their viewpoint. Their Freeze Frame Mentality cuts up the game into snapshots... microseconds in time where the dogfight "freezes" and all combat must take place at the precise moment of the freeze. I think its silly, but I do see why they would make such rules if that's how they see the game.

The game was actually based, however, on the Flow Mentality. Each game turn represents not some frozen moment in time, but a span of twenty seconds. One game turn is intended to represent everything that can occur within that twenty seconds. This means that an EA diving on an SE from, say, the rear, must also come out of his dive and zoom away in front of the SE, giving the Lewis gun a nice shot (okay... a tail shot instead of head-on... whatever). Or, it could mean that the EA didn't magically "appear" over the SE pilot's head... he flew there during this twenty second time period and the SE pilot adjusted his Lewis gun during the EA's approach. The game is not cut up into microsecond freeze frames; it is representative of a flow and all that can happen within that flow.

I definately prefer the Flow Mentality, but I can see it both ways. What I don't like about the 8th is that it does not rely on either point of view as a standard, but appears to mix and match them on a whim. Apparently the 8th will use the Madison house rule on SE Lewis guns... an obvious freeze-frame rule. But then the 8th will also use bombing rules where a plane can make a drop during the twenty second flow of its move like a real airplane, not necessarily only in its last square. What sense does that make? The game is either a freeze frame - like watching The Blue Max with your finger on the DVD's "pause" button - or it represents the flow of real combat.

I can do either, but having both makes little sense. At least to me.

[jrmcintyre]

Given a slightly different view on "freeze" or "flow", my take is that "freeze" is one action in 20 seconds whereas "flow" is multiple actions in 20 seconds.

If Mike likes multiple drops for bombs, I'd go with the Indy philosophy of multiple 'freezes' to create "flow." Use small 'markers' for the "flow" in much the same manner that we use 'markers' for the bomb drop.

[noski]

I am suprised that the SE 5 defensive Lewis shot is being used at all. A few years ago consensus held that no one can find any evidence that such a shot was ever taken by anybody. The Feikorps does not allow any kind of defensive fire from an SE. The Albert Ball offensive shot which is documented has been adopted at the urging of Ken.

D

[kirkh]

Just to start conversation on this again, is there any update on the 8th edition? Also, (and I don't want to sound pessimistic) in all seriousness will there ever really be an 8th edition? It's been "coming soon" since I first bought DP off of Ebay about eight or nine years ago and I just don't see it happening.

[Stephen]

I think there will be one, but MC isn't in a hurry. Plus, he relies on volunteers for help, some of whom get things done quicker than others. But too much has been done on it to just drop it... I believe it will happen. Its probably 60-80% done already.

[AP]

Last I talked to Mike about this he said they were working on the French Aircraft Charts, and once those were completed it was set, so it sounded like it was 90% ready. Mike is definitely not in a hurry for this one as he wants it done right. He will be in town a few times this fall for gaming, I will make a point of it to get the dish then & report in!

[kirkh]

Mike sounds like an engineer. (I can joke about us engineers because I am one). Us engineers will try to wait and wait and wait until something is perfect until somebody in a program office kicks us in the pants and says; "Either get it out there or cancel the project!!!" The longer we wait, the less time each of us has to enjoy the revised game and the less return on investment there is for the developer. It'll never be perfect, so a lot of the time the 95% solution is what we have to go with. Look at computer games. Has there ever been one released that was bugless? If software developers waited until they were perfect the games would be obsolete before they ever hit the shelves.

[joseki]

Any progress updates?

[AP]

Mike showed me the charts they were working on when I was at his place in early Dec. He said that he and Al were getting close, but he was taking time off from it to review a draft of Mr. Skinners novel. It will be interesting to see if he has an update by the time of the spring mini-con, but there still seems to be no rush to complete it.

[joseki]

I swear I'm bringing a needle and thread to the con and if its not done I'm altering the inseams on all his pants

[albpilot]

joseki said:

I swear I'm bringing a needle and thread to the con and if its not done I'm altering the inseams on all his pants

At this rate, the 8th ed will be delivered by a yeti flown in on a UFO...

(note the inference it's existence is fictional....)

[jrmcintyre]

Taking a look at the top of this thread...
So whats the status?
« Thread Started on Feb 13, 2006, 7:43pm »

7th Edition was published 1981--twenty-seven years ago.

How much more time between editions? The second generation of Dawn Patrol players are old enough to have children--neither of which generation has seen this game published.

I'd relegate the movement to that of a glacier and that much closer to extinction.

[AP]

Maybe at the mini-con in March we can put Mike up at the front of the room & everyone sit quietly & stare at him until he gives us an answer... I think its important to find out what exactly is holding it up, and if its a time issue, offer to volunteer to assist as the 'DP community' to get it out there, and get some 21st Century publicity as well.
I personally would love to see a simple 'Western Front Fighters' scaled back edition released first, which could be followed by additional module releases-'Recon, Bombing on the Western Front' , 'Italian Front' and 'North Sea'. That way the WHOLE thing wouldnt have to be done, and it may make it more friendly from a marketing perspective...more players may purchase a cheaper base game & then can decide if they want to ante up for other modules...
There needs to be a new website that is more interactive to draw more interest too. If the 'Wings of War' game can draw a large following, DP should be able thrive even more!
Thats my 2 cents

[bergovoy]

I'm with you on this. I have been pushing for a new website for a while, but we would need someone to be a webmaster that would have time and knowledge to keep it updated and going.

I fully agree it is more than time that we have something, at least an idea where the process is.

George