Seeking Truth or Protecting Position?

[Michael]

Mar 14, 2010 15:36:34 GMT -5 albpilot said:

I submit to you that no matter which side you take, as long as you are getting your information from someone else, you are viewing filtered info and thus both sides can be questioned with equal validity.

Not if both sides are "bending" the truth, which may very well be the case.

[KevinR]

Mar 14, 2010 15:36:34 GMT -5 albpilot said:

Mar 12, 2010 16:32:00 GMT -5 KevinR said:

That is why only those interpretations of Waco, Ruby Ridge, or any other incident which fit your worldview are what you are willing to accept.

Like I seriously wonder if you have EVER been willing to accept or believe that David Koresh was a child molesting wacko who was planning to do evil things possibly on a much larger scale than the Jim Jones cult. Instead you focus on the "wicked actions" of the government. That's just an example. Instead in our past discussions you've held him up as some kind of hero or at least someone who was just having church.

If I may throw out for your consideration at this point, this item:

Stephen is putting his belief behind interpretations of an event that come from a premise similar to his. Kevin, you are putting your belief behind a premise that comes from more 'established' or 'professional' sources. You are asking Stephen to examine his source material here....are you willing to do the same to the source material from the mainstream media and government?

I submit to you that no matter which side you take, as long as you are getting your information from someone else, you are viewing filtered info and thus both sides can be questioned with equal validity.

Absolutely every source should be examined and biases should be caught. I catch the biases in the liberal media just as much as I do the anarchists or the Libertarians or the people who claim themselves to be part of the modern militian movement or the New World Order conspiracy theorists.

I do not for a minute take for granted anything the mainstream media says. I do not deny that there is evil in our government. I reject the assertion that ALL governments are evil and have no purpose, and that God doesn't have purposes for government to punish the wicked and protect the innocent.

The modern mainstream media is mostly liberal and anti-God and anti-Biblical morality. These biases heavily affect most of what we see written in the newspapers and broadcast on the TV.

[Stephen]

Does that mean you've already contacted Don Cooper? What did he say?

[KevinR]

Mar 14, 2010 22:11:05 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Does that mean you've already contacted Don Cooper? What did he say?

I don't have to contact Don Cooper to see that he made conflicting statements in his articles and that there is an agenda behind them, and that right alongside them are repeated attempts to get donations for the website it's posted on. (You can see them even in your own paste and cuts).

I am not interested in wasting my time or exercises in futility.

[KevinR]

Mar 14, 2010 22:11:05 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Does that mean you've already contacted Don Cooper? What did he say?

On March 9th, 2010 he said:

"My entire adult life I’ve felt the injustices imposed upon honest, hard-working individuals in our society: frivolous traffic tickets, lying politicians, extorted taxes for things we neither want nor need, abusive law enforcement and the like.

I’ve always been passionate about these injustices but not actively so."

I've read through dozens of his past articles and I find the above statement to be completely untrue. You can do so for yourself or blindly accept what he writes because you agree with views.

Here's the link:

www.lewrockwell.com/cooper/cooper-arch.html

[Stephen]

Mar 14, 2010 23:15:31 GMT -5 KevinR said:

I don't have to contact Don Cooper to see that he made conflicting statements in his articles and that there is an agenda behind them

In other words, you don't need to contact the persons involved, speak directly to the author or conduct anything resembling genuine research to form your opinion and know that you are right.

"Stephen, I'm always willing to seek truth. There is no way that both of his statements could have been true." - Kevin

That commitment was short-lived.

[noski]

Since Ruby Ridge was mentioned , I thought I'd enter Gerry Spence's take on Randy Weaver. ( He got Weaver off on his federal charges)...Spence to Weaver..."Before we begin to talk I want you to understand that I do not share any of your political or religious beliefs...my daughter is marriedto a Jew.My sister is married to a black man...I deplore what the Nazis stand for. If I defend youI will not defend your religious or political beliefs, but your rights as an American citizen to a fair trial." Pg 4/ 5 "From Freedom to Slavery"
Randy Weaver's principal crime had been the failure to appear in court on a charge of possesing illegal fire arms.The first crime was not his. He had been entrapped by a federal agent....who solicited him to cut off, contrary to federal law,the barrells of a couple shot guns. Pg 5
When Weaver failed to appear in court because he had lost his trust in the government we witnessed the fruit of our crime. (Our crime because no one speaks up anymore when we see government doing something wrong. I am paraphrasing Spence as why this is our crime).The government had no intent to to protect his rights.The government had but one purpose, as it remains today,the disengagementof this citizen from society. Pg7
Let me tell you the facts: a crack team of trained government marksmen sneaked onto Randy Weaver's small isolated acreage on a reco mission prepratory to a contemplated arrest. They wore cammo suits and were heavily armed.They gave Randy no warning they were comming.They came without a warrent .They never identified themselves....
They shot Striker (one of their dogs) Weaver's boy , Sam, ...saw the dog drop dead and as a 14 year old might, he returned fire. The government agents shot the boy in the arm . He turned and ran,the arm flopping and when he did the officers, still unidentified as such, shot the child in the back and killed him.Pg8
The next evening, Weaver's oldest daughter Sarah,16, Kevin and Randy went back to the shed to have a last look at Sam. Government snipers opened fire hitting Randy in the shoulder.The 3 ran for the house where Vicki , with her 10month old baby in her arms stood holding the door open. As the 3 entered the house,Vicki was shot and slowly fell to her knees her head resting on the floor like one kneeking in prayer. Randy...lifted his wife's head. Half of her face was blown away.Pg9
Although I understand that it will be easy for my defence of Randy Weaver to be confused with an endorsement of the politics of the Aryan Nation, my challenge will be to demonstrate that we can still be a nation where the rights of the individual...remain supreme.If this be not so, it is because we have forgotten the lessons of our histories-the history of the AMerican Revolution as well as the history of the Holocaust.Pg11
The ultimate enemy of democracy is not the drug dealer or the crooked politician or the crazed skin-head (and I would add terrorist as well).The ultimate enemy is the New King that has become so powerful it can murder its own citizens with impunity.
...if I were to withdraw my defence of Randy Weaver ...I would be required to abandon my belief that this system has any remaining virue.I would be more at fault than the federal government that murdered these people....I would be less of a man than my client who had the courage of his convictions. I would lose all respect of myself Pg 11
Spence got Weaver off on all charges, because the government was wrong.

This is the government I fear. I don't believe in Satan but I do believe in the evil that lies in the hearts of men. So we can vote them out, revolt or do nothing . If we do nothing we will end up like the Jews Stephen describes earlier. The King won't have to charge his weapons, we'll just walk into the chamber of our own will.

[KevinR]

I will save time, and summarize my position. I don't deny the government does evil things, that our government is under the influence of evil men, whether you believe in Satan or not, it's under the influence of evil.

I deny the assertion that ALL government or law enforcement is evil and doesn't serve a purpose.

Were there wrong things done at Ruby Ridge? Sure.

Were there wrong things done at Waco? Sure.

Are there bad cops? Sure.

None of this proves the position that ALL government is evil, that ALL cops are evil, or that anarchy is the best system possible. As a Bible-believing, born-again Christian I confine my views to be defined by God's Word and what God's Word teaches first and foremost. The Bible is my filter for the world around me. I look through Biblical glasses when I examine anything.

The idea of anarchy is completely opposite of what God teaches in His Word that He wants for mankind. In fact we had a long period of time in human history in which God allowed anarchy. It's known by scholars as the Dispensation of Conscience, and was a time when there was no law enforcement in place. The end result of that period can be seen in Genesis chapter 6 and God was disgusted by the state of man's heart and the state of the world.

[KevinR]

Mar 15, 2010 11:03:51 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Mar 14, 2010 23:15:31 GMT -5 KevinR said:

I don't have to contact Don Cooper to see that he made conflicting statements in his articles and that there is an agenda behind them

In other words, you don't need to contact the persons involved, speak directly to the author or conduct anything resembling genuine research to form your opinion and know that you are right.

"Stephen, I'm always willing to seek truth. There is no way that both of his statements could have been true." - Kevin

That commitment was short-lived.

Lie. I have and always will be committed to seeking the truth. I answered you already. The guy gave conflicting statements in not just those articles but in lots of others I've read of his. I don't need to contact him, I am not a moron. I am capable of reading several articles and determining conflicting statements and opinions being mixed with facts.

Stop treating everyone who disagrees with you like they are an uneducated idiot. It's arrogant and it's not becoming.

[Stephen]

Mar 15, 2010 19:27:27 GMT -5 KevinR said:

As a Bible-believing, born-again Christian I confine my views to be defined by God's Word and what God's Word teaches first and foremost. The Bible is my filter for the world around me. I look through Biblical glasses when I examine anything.

"I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to."

[Michael]

Mar 16, 2010 9:25:32 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Mar 15, 2010 19:27:27 GMT -5 KevinR said:

As a Bible-believing, born-again Christian I confine my views to be defined by God's Word and what God's Word teaches first and foremost. The Bible is my filter for the world around me. I look through Biblical glasses when I examine anything.

"I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to."

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a Son is given,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over His kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

This is not quoted out of context, it means exactly what it says. Therefore, government in and of itself is not evil, The people who run it are.
To say that all government is evil is hypocrisy. Not only will Christ rule a government, he will rule a never ending global government, in the form of an monarchy, over the entire world.

[KevinR]

Mar 16, 2010 18:40:35 GMT -5 Michael said:

Mar 16, 2010 9:25:32 GMT -5 Stephen said:

"I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to."

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a Son is given,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over His kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

This is not quoted out of context, it means exactly what it says. Therefore, government in and of itself is not evil, The people who run it are.
To say that all government is evil is hypocrisy. Not only will Christ rule a government, he will rule a never ending global government, in the form of an monarchy, over the entire world.

Amen little bro!

[Michael]

Mar 16, 2010 21:10:01 GMT -5 KevinR said:

Mar 16, 2010 18:40:35 GMT -5 Michael said:

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a Son is given,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over His kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

This is not quoted out of context, it means exactly what it says. Therefore, government in and of itself is not evil, The people who run it are.
To say that all government is evil is hypocrisy. Not only will Christ rule a government, he will rule a never ending global government, in the form of an monarchy, over the entire world.

Amen little bro!

Thanks! But boy did it get quiet in here.

[Stephen]

Mar 16, 2010 18:40:35 GMT -5 Michael said:

government in and of itself is not evil

Simply because a thing belongs to Satan, is under Satan's control and answers directly to Satan as its authority, it is not necessarily evil?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. You give Satan much more credit for righteousness than I do.

Not only will Christ rule a government, he will rule a never ending global government, in the form of an monarchy, over the entire world.

Applying your own logic here, would you then support the immediate formation of a one-world government?

[Michael]

Mar 17, 2010 16:17:48 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Mar 16, 2010 18:40:35 GMT -5 Michael said:

government in and of itself is not evil

Simply because a thing belongs to Satan, is under Satan's control and answers directly to Satan as its authority, it is not necessarily evil?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. You give Satan much more credit for righteousness than I do.

Not only will Christ rule a government, he will rule a never ending global government, in the form of an monarchy, over the entire world.

Applying your own logic here, would you then support the immediate formation of a one-world government?

If it was under Christ I'd be all for it.