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Post by Stephen on Feb 26, 2010 11:00:04 GMT -5
' Reality is existence, or that which exists independently of ideas concerning it. But you already knew that. The real question is, once you determine truth, are you willing to accept it and allow it to alter your views? I am. If you are, too, then I will join you. If not, I have no interest in petty arguments.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 14:37:40 GMT -5
' Reality is existence, or that which exists independently of ideas concerning it. But you already knew that. The real question is, once you determine truth, are you willing to accept it and allow it to alter your views? I am. If you are, too, then I will join you. If not, I have no interest in petty arguments. I told you I have already determined truth. I view everything through the spectrum of God's word, my Truth.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 15:32:14 GMT -5
The greater themes of this entire thread are not only unfinished, but appear to be willingly abandoned: I am still waiting on a moral and biblical defense for torture. The US military has repeatedly and deliberately attacked innocent civilians over a span of more than 150 years. When repeated historical incidents were specifically outlined, you retreated to nationalistic generalities unrelated to the evidence presented and then dropped the subject entirely rather than permit historical fact to bring the light of truth to the predetermined views that you refuse to reconsider. So has every other country on earth over all time. Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even if government was gone people would still be at each other's throat's because WE ARE ALL SINNERS. Government being abolished won't change anything, in fact it will make things worse. I never said the US was perfect, I said it is better that most, Because it is. Osama Bin Laden repeatedly attempted, both before and after 9/11, to open diplomatic negotiations with the USA on multiple occasions. Specific instances were offered but rather than address them, once again the subject was quickly changed rather than allow historical facts to alter your predetermined views. Do you have any evidence, about before 9/11? And even if he wanted diplomatic negotiations it was on his terms only. Do you think the families of the victims of 9/11 would be overjoyed to find out that we let one of the most evil mass murderers of our time just go on his way because he wanted to, and he knows he's screwed otherwise? Of course he's going to try to talk his way out, now. If he agrees to an unconditional surrender I've got no problem with discussing that. Because he's dead either way, if he surrenders he gets a death row shot, but he avoids the senseless deaths of more of our Boys in Blue and his al-qaeda recruits. It's his choice. But if we let him go that just shows weakness on our part. Every time you ask a question and a clear, specific answer is given, you ignore the very evidence you yourself demanded and move a new argument and then repeat the process. Might you be doing the same exact thing, just a tiny, tiny, smidgen? This is not the practice of someone who is genuinely seeking truth. This is the practice of one who is defending his position. And you're not? You're defending your worldview as much as Pastor Kevin and I are defending ours. I'll tell you both again - I have no interest in arguing. If you have no interest in arguing than why do you continue to press the matter? I do have a great interest in seeking truth as scripture commands us to do. If you have any interest whatsoever in seeking truth, applying it, and allowing it to change our views, I am very interested in joining you and doing the same. If you don't want truth, that's fine, but I have no interest in endless arguing. Alright Stephan. What is your definition of "truth", spelled out in full? So we don't have anymore misunderstandings. And I am interested in truth, God's Truth. Not your's.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 15:35:17 GMT -5
' Reality is existence, or that which exists independently of ideas concerning it. But you already knew that. The real question is, once you determine truth, are you willing to accept it and allow it to alter your views? I am. If you are, too, then I will join you. If not, I have no interest in petty arguments. You have determined "truth" according to the way you think, not the way Christ thinks. What do you base your "truth" on?
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Feb 26, 2010 16:34:54 GMT -5
The greater themes of this entire thread are not only unfinished, but appear to be willingly abandoned: I am still waiting on a moral and biblical defense for torture. The US military has repeatedly and deliberately attacked innocent civilians over a span of more than 150 years. When repeated historical incidents were specifically outlined, you retreated to nationalistic generalities unrelated to the evidence presented and then dropped the subject entirely rather than permit historical fact to bring the light of truth to the predetermined views that you refuse to reconsider. So has every other country on earth over all time. Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even if government was gone people would still be at each other's throat's because WE ARE ALL SINNERS. Government being abolished won't change anything, in fact it will make things worse. I never said the US was perfect, I said it is better that most, Because it is. Which brings us to the all important distinction between our worldviews. You defend your governments wickedness because it is your country and it is better than everyone else's. Me and my father do not because what is wrong is wrong, no exceptions. Do you have any evidence, about before 9/11? And even if he wanted diplomatic negotiations it was on his terms only. Do you think the families of the victims of 9/11 would be overjoyed to find out that we let one of the most evil mass murderers of our time just go on his way because he wanted to, and he knows he's screwed otherwise? Of course he's going to try to talk his way out, now. If he agrees to an unconditional surrender I've got no problem with discussing that. Because he's dead either way, if he surrenders he gets a death row shot, but he avoids the senseless deaths of more of our Boys in Blue and his al-qaeda recruits. It's his choice. But if we let him go that just shows weakness on our part. I proved to you his reasons for his attack on 9/11. And you ignored that Then my dad proved to you his attempt at peace. And you ignored that. Whether or not the man is a saint or a sinner makes no difference. Your country is better than everyone else's, and no one is allowed to defend themselves from our just and holy attacks. Might you be doing the same exact thing, just a tiny, tiny, smidgen? Michael... I asked you 4 times to disprove what Osama Bin Laden said and I never got an answer. And you're not? You're defending your worldview as much as Pastor Kevin and I are defending ours. I am willing to re-examine everything I believe, side by side with you - as you abandon all of your preconceived notions as well - and join you in a mutual search for the truth. - Stephen Skinner Reply #46 Posted on on Feb 21, 2010, 9:59pm I already have the truth... I don't need to re-examine it.-Michael Morgan Reply #49 Posted on Feb 21, 2010, 11:33pm Alright Stephan. What is your definition of "truth", spelled out in full? So we don't have anymore misunderstandings. And I am interested in truth, God's Truth. Not your's. Why would you ask my fathers definition of truth if you weren't interested in it?
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Feb 26, 2010 16:38:05 GMT -5
You have determined "truth" according to the way you think, not the way Christ thinks. What do you base your "truth" on? You are guilty of the same thing. You think that what Christ thinks is absolute truth. Which is why you will never be able to effectively evangelize to someone who does not see the world exactly as you do.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 16:50:39 GMT -5
You have determined "truth" according to the way you think, not the way Christ thinks. What do you base your "truth" on? You are guilty of the same thing. You think that what Christ thinks is absolute truth. Ummm.... That's because it is!
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Feb 26, 2010 16:56:06 GMT -5
You are guilty of the same thing. You think that what Christ thinks is absolute truth. Ummm.... That's because it is! Which is why you will never be able to effectively evangelize to someone who does not see the world exactly as you do.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2010 17:11:28 GMT -5
Which brings us to the all important distinction between our worldviews. You defend your governments wickedness because it is your country and it is better than everyone else's. Me and my father do not because what is wrong is wrong, no exceptions. Then why do you both continue to defend bin laden? I proved to you his reasons for his attack on 9/11. And you ignored that. No you didn't. You made an assumption. Then my dad proved to you his attempt at peace. And you ignored that. He's not attempting peace, he just doesn't want his butt to get blown to bits. Whether or not the man is a saint or a sinner makes no difference. Your country is better than everyone else's, and no one is allowed to defend themselves from our just and holy attacks. I never said we were in Jihad, like what al-qaeda's keep saying they are. I am willing to re-examine everything I believe, side by side with you - as you abandon all of your preconceived notions as well - and join you in a mutual search for the truth. - Stephen Skinner Reply #46 Posted on on Feb 21, 2010, 9:59pm I already have the truth... I don't need to re-examine it.-Michael Morgan Reply #49 Posted on Feb 21, 2010, 11:33pm I have said this time and time again, I WILL NOT TEST CHRIST OR MY FAITH!Alright Stephan. What is your definition of "truth", spelled out in full? So we don't have anymore misunderstandings. And I am interested in truth, God's Truth. Not your's. Why would you ask my fathers definition of truth if you weren't interested in it? I was responding to what he posted, read it next time, your dad said myself and Kevin didn't want truth. He's right in the fact that I don't want his "truth", but I do seek to further understand God's Truth.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 26, 2010 17:14:17 GMT -5
Do you have any evidence, about before 9/11? And even if he wanted diplomatic negotiations it was on his terms only. No, but you do. You already have truth! So please tell me about both the negotiation attempts by Bin Laden, and throw in details about Saddam as well. Thank you. Wait a minute... you just said that you wanted them to initiate negotiations, but now you say that you won't discuss anything other than unconditional surrender. You said that the USA was not unreasonable, but now you want to dictate all the terms of negotiation and kill anyone who resists. That moaning sound you hear is the Prince of Peace burying his head in his hands. No, I am seeking truth. If the US military has not deliberately attacked citizens, I want to know so that I can adjust my belief system accordingly. If the Bible teaches that Christians already have all truth and don't need anymore, I want to know so I can adjust my belief system accordingly. If Jesus, the Prince of Peace, is pleased at the righteousness and justice of torturing our fellow human beings, I want to know so that I can adjust my beliefs accordingly. I am willing to alter my views. I have said so many times. You are not. And you have said so many times. So no, Michael, I am not defending my position, and yes, you are. I don't define words. Words are defined by dictionaries. So "my" definition of truth, or any other English word, is irrelevant. Truth is defined as reality, concrete existence not subject to concepts or ideas. What you or I "think" the definition of truth might be is inconsequential. The light outside my barn door has been flashing off and on for months and its driving me nuts. I thought it was an electrical short, but that's apparently not true because I checked and that didn't fix it. What is wrong with my barn light? Please tell me God's Truth because I absolutely can't figure this out. Since you have God's Truth and that's the only truth there is, and you already have it, I'm begging you to tell me... what's wrong with my barn light?
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Post by Stephen on Feb 26, 2010 17:28:24 GMT -5
I do seek to further understand God's Truth. What is the difference between "God's" truth and any other truth? Let's look at two facts that we both agree on - 1. Christ was crucified. 2. Grass is green. Since the first statement is "God's Truth," is it somehow "more truer" than the second? Since the second statement is not part of "God's Truth," does that mean grass is actually blue? Or, since the color of grass is not specified by "God's Truth," does that mean grass is actually an illusion and does not exist at all? It seems that you're trying to create some sort of mystical, Buddhist-like superstition about "God's Truth." Truth is truth. The source is irrelevant. If Hitler said "Christ was crucified," would this make it untrue? If St. Paul had said that Jesus was a bank robber, would that somehow make it true? A statement is either true or false. It doesn't get "more truer" just because you found a bible verse that mentions it. This is not about mystical superstitions. It is not about man-made religion. Its not even about the bible. This is about the plain meaning of English language words.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 26, 2010 17:32:43 GMT -5
Then why do you both continue to defend bin laden? No one is defending Bin Laden. We are seeking the truth behind what actually occurred. We are seeking to find who truly initiated force and who was truly acting defensively. We are seeking to navigate through false information to learn genuine, verifiable truth and seek wisdom and understanding as God commanded. With a willing heart and an open mind, we are actively seeking the truth about which side is right and which is wrong. We readily admit that we do not have all the answers. We still need truth. We don't already have it all. The act of seeking the truth does not equate to "defending Bin Laden."
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 26, 2010 18:07:25 GMT -5
Then why do you both continue to defend bin laden? No one is defending Bin Laden. We are seeking the truth behind what actually occurred. We are seeking to find who truly initiated force and who was truly acting defensively. We are seeking to navigate through false information to learn genuine, verifiable truth and seek wisdom and understanding as God commanded. With a willing heart and an open mind, we are actively seeking the truth about which side is right and which is wrong. We readily admit that we do not have all the answers. We still need truth. We don't already have it all. The act of seeking the truth does not equate to "defending Bin Laden." Except your statements here and for the past 8 years or so indicate that you have already made up your minds. You aren't seeking the truth on the matter, you're seeking to bolster the view you have already accepted. You say you're seeking the truth on what actually occurred but you vehemently defend Bin Laden and accept his statements as truth. (See Stephen Dale's comments)
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 26, 2010 18:09:51 GMT -5
You have determined "truth" according to the way you think, not the way Christ thinks. What do you base your "truth" on? You are guilty of the same thing. You think that what Christ thinks is absolute truth. Which is why you will never be able to effectively evangelize to someone who does not see the world exactly as you do. False. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We can listen to you or we can take God at His Word. (See Romans 10:17)
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 26, 2010 18:10:52 GMT -5
This whole thing about your barn light is just silly Stephen. You know Michael isn't claiming to know everything. Sheesh.
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