Historical HO attacks

[noski]

In the Wesley thread Stephen said that HO attacks in WW! were not very effective and DP HO attacks are 'overly outrageous super deadly'.
I agree with his point about the squadron HO attacks not being very effective but they were used from long range (per the Dicta Boelcke ) to break up approaching flights and those kinds of attacks cannot be simulated in DP anyway so the point is mute.
The Freikorps modifies the probable pilot hit chances to 200' or less. We also use the 16 card movement , not the collision chart.
Anyway, I thought I'd start this thread to note any WW1 HO attacks I run across in my readings for comparison.

On Sept. 25th 1917 Lt. Leonard Barlow in a SE5a HOd Lt. Weigand "into flaming pieces " per Osprey #71.
Ernst Udet attacked a RE 8 HO and shot it down to impress his new commander, MvR. When queryed by MvR , Udet told the Baron he had used HO attacks several times (plural) before to good effect per his book about WW1. (Knight of Iron Cross?)
PLM ace, Heinrich Bongartz, lost an eye to a HO attack ending his combat days per Neal O'Connor.
I have run across other accounts of HO attacks in my readings but can't remmenber them.

[Stephen]

This is a good idea. I'm not reading much right now because of work and travel, but if I run across anything I'll add to it.

[noski]

It may take awhile but if folks run across an HO attack in their readings and post them here, we may get an idea of how deadly they were or were not.

[Michael]

Here's one I found in the book "Sopwith Camel v.s. Fokker Dr I" by Jon Guttman.
On 28 March 1918 Lt. Ernst Udet attacked 2Lt. C. R. Maasdorp,
Udet described the encounter.
At 80 metres he opens fire. It is impossible to avoid him, so I go straight for him. "Tack, Tack, Tack" bellows mine at him,
"Tack, Tack, Tack" bellows his back at me.
We are still 20 metres apart, and it looks as though we will ram each other in another second. Then, a small movement, and he barely skims over me. His propwash shakes me, and the smell of castor oil flows past me.
I make a slight turn. "Now begins the dogfight", I think. But he has also turned, and again we come at each other, firing like two tournament knights with lances at rest. This time I fly over him.
Another bank. Again, he is straight across from me, and once more we go for each other. The thin, white trails of the tracers hang in the air like curtains. He skims over me with barely a hand's width to spare - "8224" it says on his fuselage in black numerals. The fourth time, I can feel my hands getting damp. That fellow there is a man who is fighting for his life. Him or me - one has to go. There is no other way. For the fifth time! The nerves are taught to the bursting point, but the brain works coldly and clearly. This time the decision must fall. I line him up in my sights and go for him. I am resolved not to give an inch. We come at each other like mad boars. If he keeps his nerve we will both be lost! Then he turns to avoid me.
At this moment he is caught by my burst. His aircraft rears, turns on its back and disappears in a gigantic crater. A fountain of earth, smoke. Twice I circle around the impact area. Field grey shapes are standing below, waving at me, shouting.

So five H.O.s before Maasdorp goes down, Due to a bullet to the head.

[noski]

Over the Front, Volume 14,number 3. Fall 1999: pg 232 Lothar v. Richthofen writes..."I haven't even reached the front yet when a new "Lord" (the Richthofen's and other pilot's nickname for the English) attacks me from in front and overhead.( LvR had no ammo to return fire.)...After I take a couple of hits in my machine, this Englishman lets me go..."
On pg 234 he says..."My brother wrote that one could only shoot airplanes down from behind. I would dispute that , since I myself shot down five Englishmen from the front."

[Stephen]

I don't doubt the validity of any of these accounts, but they are only useful when viewed as a percentage of overall aerial combats.

For instance, I think we have four (4) instances of HO attacks mentioned on this thread. If a total of 5 aerial combats occurred during the war, then we have an 80% rate. But if 100 combats occurred in the air during the war, then HO attacks represent 4% of them.

So one number (no matter what it is) without the other is of no use. It is the overall, big picture that counts.

The best numbers offered above are from LVR, who scored 40 victories and claimed that 5 of them were from HO attacks. That represents about 12% of his kills. That number is somewhat useful. However, it leaves many questions unanswered...

For instance... MVR, Boelcke, and many others maintained that shooting from behind was vastly more effective. Using this as rough, default truth (given the experience of those making the claim), it would seem to indicate that LVR used the HO tactic frequently, but with only 5 kills to show for it. So now the 12% ratio seems even weaker and indicates that the deadliness of DP HO's is even more out of balance with reality since LVR apparently used the tactic with great frequency compared to other aces yet only 12% of his kills were scored in this manner.

Of course there are many different ways to look at this, but again, its the overall ratios that count.

[noski]

Over the Front Volume 15 Number 3 , Fall 2000 pg 213
From Lt. Hans Joachim Wolff... Wolff laughs. "But then all at once another one is coming at me", he says, "at least one hundred meters away away.Whatthe hell, I say to myself, star firung at him, even if it is still a bit far. I hold steady , take precise aim and then he flies right into my line of fire, burns immediately, crashes. I make a silly face- look around for a moment: Well I never! Was there someone else behind him? No, honest he is mine."

How Stephen gets the idea that LvR used the HO attack "frequently" from two sentences that merely state out of his 40 kills, 5 were from HO attacks is beyond me . The only definitive information from those two sentences is a) he disagreed with his brother and b) 5 of his 40 kills were from HO attacks. Period.

[noski]

From Over The Front, Vol 4, #2, pg 111...
Bristol F2b, Lts Dodds/ Tuffield (obs).
"The rear gun fired from about 200 yards,then Dodds turned into it head on and fired up to 25 yards. This EA then went down with flames issuing from it, completely out of control."

"The following day...Capt. Letts was leading a patrol when he observed 15 EA about 1000 feet below. Letts dived and engaged one EA head on. The EA rolled and went under the Bristol. "

[noski]

" As he came out of it he almost collided with another German fighter, stalled under a third and fired on it , then came head-on at a fourth , firing 20 rounds before he saw it spin away."

Osprey 104 pg 35