Unintended Consequences

[Stephen]

Well, I lost one of my Camel aces tonight and I got to thinking about something.

Earlier in the game, both Ethan and Garrett had been forgiven (twice) of diving into the ground. Everyone felt bad for them so we decided to let them move backwards in violation of our own rules in order to keep them in the game. "We" means "me" as well... I supported it, too.

Then later in the game, Ethan takes a pot shot at my 24/10 Camel ace and scores a hit with snake eyes, killing my pilot. Of course, Ethan should never have been in the game at that point, let alone alive and well and shooting at enemy Camel aces.

The action of the game should stand as it took place, but in retrospect, I wonder if its ultimately counterproductive to make on-the-fly exceptions like that, even for kids and rookies.

First, they learn nothing. The fact is that we all have to fly into the ground now and then. And saving a kid from such a mistake only allows him the luxury of making it again later instead of learning to focus on the game.

Secondly, once we start compromising rules, we're on a very slippery slope. Now we have to decide who gets rules bent for them and who doesn't and when we'll abide by our rules and when we won't.

Thirdly, why would anyone fly a valuable pilot in a game with rookies or kids now? I certainly would think twice. If we decide to hold a "forgiveness" game, everyone should know in advance so they can fly low level pilots.

And fourthly, because you never know what impact that plane - the one we just saved from certain death by breaking the rules - will have on the rest of the game.

This was the smallest of my Camel aces so its not a huge deal. But what if it had been the biggest pilot on someone's roster? I can see where they would have a pretty legitimate gripe.

I'll have to think about it a little more, but I'm going to be more hesitant to break our rules next time, and not simply for my own benefit. It may be your ace that we're saving.

What think ye?

[albpilot]

Oct 10, 2009 23:02:49 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Well, I lost one of my Camel aces tonight and I got to thinking about something.

Earlier in the game, both Ethan and Garrett had been forgiven (twice) of diving into the ground. Everyone felt bad for them so we decided to let them move backwards in violation of our own rules in order to keep them in the game. "We" means "me" as well... I supported it, too.

Then later in the game, Ethan takes a pot shot at my 24/10 Camel ace and scores a hit with snake eyes, killing my pilot. Of course, Ethan should never have been in the game at that point, let alone alive and well and shooting at enemy Camel aces.

The action of the game should stand as it took place, but in retrospect, I wonder if its ultimately counterproductive to make on-the-fly exceptions like that, even for kids and rookies.

First, they learn nothing. The fact is that we all have to fly into the ground now and then. And saving a kid from such a mistake only allows him the luxury of making it again later instead of learning to focus on the game.

Secondly, once we start compromising rules, we're on a very slippery slope. Now we have to decide who gets rules bent for them and who doesn't and when we'll abide by our rules and when we won't.

Thirdly, why would anyone fly a valuable pilot in a game with rookies or kids now? I certainly would think twice. If we decide to hold a "forgiveness" game, everyone should know in advance so they can fly low level pilots.

And fourthly, because you never know what impact that plane - the one we just saved from certain death by breaking the rules - will have on the rest of the game.

This was the smallest of my Camel aces so its not a huge deal. But what if it had been the biggest pilot on someone's roster? I can see where they would have a pretty legitimate gripe.

I'll have to think about it a little more, but I'm going to be more hesitant to break our rules next time, and not simply for my own benefit. It may be your ace that we're saving.

What think ye?

The 'forgiveness' aspect certainly runs counter to the spirit of some of the house rules, such as the no backwards movement thing. I don't see any reason to penalize people learning the game overly harshly, but you have a point really.

[Stephen]

On the other hand, we don't want to run off newbies. If we want other people to play the game, it has to be fun for them. But I wonder if such rules violations, even when well intended, are ultimately counterproductive to the whole group.

Maybe when newbies are present we hold the first game of the night with an announcement that we may violate the rules on their behalf, and you fly aces at your own risk? There's got to be several more ways to handle it, too. Just thinking out loud here.

[starwarsminifan]

You didn't have to give ME forgiveness Stephen, I have learned from it and will not do it again, but you shouldn't have given it to me.

[Stephen]

Probably, but that's water under the bridge. I'm more concerned about repeating the same situation.

[joseki]

Hi guys,
I probably shouldn't but in BUT:)

We have more newbies down here and as such we play alot of what you call forgiveness games. Sometimes with the same result you've experienced Stephen. All of us veteran players have lost an Ace to what we term Newbie luck. We consider that part of doing business. We give ALOT of help and as the players learn we tail off the help. Scott even has a list that we check things off on. As they fill out his list we help less and less.
I posted on the Society site about a guy that on his sith game ever shot down an ace and a Double ace. Those things happen. Don't sweat it just start another pilot. As they say "Flight is death!"

[starwarsminifan]

No you wont have to give it to me again, I will look and think before making a move now.

[noski]

If a newbie makes a mistake like the ones posted here , take a vote. If everyone votes to let the newbie re-do his move, OK. If the ace is afraid the newbie might kill him later in the game then his 'no' vote is enough to make the newbie live (or die as the case maybe) with his manuver.

[Stephen]

Oct 12, 2009 11:41:49 GMT -5 joseki said:

All of us veteran players have lost an Ace to what we term Newbie luck.

That's very true and we all accept it. I've lost many aces to "newbie luck," and I agree entirely. But luck is really not the issue here, nor is the loss of my pilot.

I still think the best way to do it is just to declare this a no-rules game in advance with lots of leeway given to everyone. That way everyone knows the risks up front and you can do what you like from there.

Wisdom seems to dictate that we either abide by our own rules or openly declare our intent not to, and do so clearly in advance.

[Stephen]

Oct 12, 2009 12:58:21 GMT -5 noski said:

If a newbie makes a mistake like the ones posted here , take a vote. If everyone votes to let the newbie re-do his move, OK. If the ace is afraid the newbie might kill him later in the game then his 'no' vote is enough to make the newbie live (or die as the case maybe) with his manuver.

That would work, too. But then its difficult to allow a newbie's pilot to die when you might be able to save him. Its tough for newbies to go through that and we want them to enjoy the game and encourage future participation, so the knee jerk reaction is to forgive everything in their favor, which obviously leads to unintended consequences. That's why I say we just declare what we're doing at the start of the game, then you can fly who you will and take whatever chances you like with full knowledge of how the game will go.

[KevinR]

I think that Garrett would have learned his lesson either way, so I don't know that we should have given him a 2nd chance in retrospect. Remember the first time I ever played Dawn Patrol on the 2nd turn I got my head blown off. At the time I just started laughing so hard because I thought it was funny, and you said "Hey he's got the right mindset for this game."

In the end, I learned from my mistakes and so does everyone else who plays. The bigger thing may be when we are playing with really young kids as opposed to just newbies. Garrett is almost 12 and I've been holding him out of Dawn Patrol until for a reason, I didn't think he had the patience or could think through his moves until now. He showed me a lot more Saturday when we played then he has in many previous times when we've tried to show him. Kids are not apt though to think that their pilot is ever going to die so it's a different game when you are playing with kids (hence Evan or Ethan always wanting to stay and fight even if they are badly outnumbered and their plane is damaged).

In the end I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think we were far more lenient with Garrett or Ethan than we would have been another newbie who was twice their age, and maybe we shouldn't be.

[albpilot]

Oct 13, 2009 12:12:04 GMT -5 KevinR said:

I think that Garrett would have learned his lesson either way, so I don't know that we should have given him a 2nd chance in retrospect. Remember the first time I ever played Dawn Patrol on the 2nd turn I got my head blown off. At the time I just started laughing so hard because I thought it was funny, and you said "Hey he's got the right mindset for this game."

In the end, I learned from my mistakes and so does everyone else who plays. The bigger thing may be when we are playing with really young kids as opposed to just newbies. Garrett is almost 12 and I've been holding him out of Dawn Patrol until for a reason, I didn't think he had the patience or could think through his moves until now. He showed me a lot more Saturday when we played then he has in many previous times when we've tried to show him. Kids are not apt though to think that their pilot is ever going to die so it's a different game when you are playing with kids (hence Evan or Ethan always wanting to stay and fight even if they are badly outnumbered and their plane is damaged).

In the end I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think we were far more lenient with Garrett or Ethan than we would have been another newbie who was twice their age, and maybe we shouldn't be.

Oh, Evan is a year older than Garrett. I think he just likes to shoot things. But your point is valid.

[KevinR]

Wow he's getting big fast. Or I'm getting old fast.

I have to say Sierra impressed me with her ability to think through different situations and make a decision. I had to help her too, but overall I think she made less errors than the other kids.