Squadron tournament events

[KevinR]

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I must say that I am still not at all enamored with the way the Armistice day tournament wound up. I think that we should discuss having new rule passed where if the majority agrees to something it should stand, (regardless of who is at the table disagreeing).

We had a situation that to me was absolute atrocity and left a horrible taste in my mouth.
Six experienced pilots against one young boy who didn't know any better that he was about to be blown out of the sky. That should cause us to re-evaluate how important this game is to us.
If it is SO important to someone to win a championship that they are willing to keep up a monstrosity like that, then Indy Squadron has become something that I never thought it would become.

In the past winning the championship was always a goal of everyone at the table, but you also don't lose sight of everything else that would be considered normal gameplay.
The only other thing I could suggest to alleviate something like that happening in the future is to have an age limit on the championship and tournament events like Armistice Day and RBF.
This is no slight on Rick or Evan, so please don't take it that way, but I know my 8 year old would probably make the same decisions little Evan did. He has asked me tons of times to bring him to play and I always tell him when he is a little older. I have been planning to bring him when he is about 9 or 10.

That being said, I think that those who wanted to continue and blow Evan out of the sky just for the points were doing exactly what Stephen said and trying to alter what had already been decided. Sorry but that is my opinion. Even when his plane was taking on damage he wasn't going to leave. I don't think it was bravery so much as just a young child not really knowing any better........

It was a ridiculous situation that should have ended with the majority vote.
I am sorry but to me the whole squadron championship was tainted this year by that event and I hope that we can lay some things in place to avoid that type of thing happening in the future......

That being said I still love the game and I love Dawn Patrol and the Indy Squadron.
I miss terribly what the Squadron used to be however....there was much more camradrie and less obsessiveness with winning.

It was a game that when I played my first game in Dawn Patrol and my pilot got his head blown off, I was able to burst out in laughter and everyone laughed with me.

I miss folks like Graham who were GREAT players, but didn't have to win everything to feel good about themselves. They just enjoyed the game......

Again this is no slap on one particular person, I just want to see us return to what made Indy Squadron so great!!!!

Kevin

[Stephen]

I agree with some of your points. I am also disappointed with the way the game ended.

However, I agree with Dory who pointed out that as long as one player wants to continue, we cannot close the game (and this same discussion has come to the same conclusion in years past) . It must be unanimous. Otherwise we create serious unintended consequences.

I admit that Evan may have been a bit young to play in a championship tourney... however, I feel very strongly that we should never turn a player away from our gaming table. Everyone should be made to feel welcome. If one game is the price we must pay to have Evan (or my son or your son) as a player some day and for parents to be able to enjoy time with their kids, then I am willing to pay it.

Another critical point: Rick is the one who was most shorted by Evan lengthening the game, but he knew what he was doing before he did it and never complained once. Rick had an excellent shot at his first title until the late stages of the game changed things. If he didn't complain, I certainly won't.

My vote will always be that we accept any player who wants to play and that precludes me from supporting an age limit, though I recognize the valid points you've made.

And I'm not sure Evan's presence is entirely responsible for the game's end. There were adults (plural) at the table who knew better and could have made the voluntary decision to end the game, but they did not. We all expect questionable decisions from children - but not from the adults.

I do agree that the situation resulted from an overemphasis on winning and scoring kills, I agree that I'd like to see that change, and I also agree that the championship suffered this year. I hope I stated the above in a non-offensive way and I apologize in advance if I failed.

[KevinR]

I also meant no offense with what I said. I don't mind youngsters learning the game at all. My original point was that would be the only other thing I could think of if the adults were not going to behave like adults.....
I don't fault Evan for being there or Rick for bringing him at all. I think the boy is going to be a fine player. The rule change to have an age limit would be under the current win at all costs mindset. I wouldn't want to put my own son in that situation because he would pick up bad habits......

That being said, in the OLD DAYS kids could play at an Indy Squadron event and these types of things would have NEVER happened!!!! So we would have never had to worry about passing a silly rule. (Which you know I am against silly rules for the sake of rules).
It's really the mindset I would like to see changed. I compete to win as much as the next guy, but I think you will find me to be exactly the same guy whether I win or finish last. I have won and finished last now in BOTH of the major Indy events so I think I can speak honestly and unhypocritically about that.
For me it's about the fun. Sure I like to trash talk "You will die like dogs" and what not. That is all part of the fun. But in the end to me what always made Dawn Patrol special above all other role-playing type games I have ever played was the camraderie that always took place at the tables. During the past couple of championships and several of the regularly scheduled events I myself have noticed a dip in the camraderie that we all once had. Maybe it's just me. But I have heard one guy say he was totally sick of playing with another guy and so forth.
And some people have said that other people have cheated.
I don't like to participate in gossip, but to me we just need to get back to the basics. It's a game and we should play it for fun and relaxation.

I miss the days when we could roll our rolls and know we could trust one another not to cheat........ (I mean if someone cheated at Dawn Patrol I think they should be pitied more than anything!!)
It's stuff like that that really has me on the fence. I don't want to see any more Indy events turn out like that one did.

I know I am wordy, but I have been wanting to get this off of my chest for a while!!

I think that the whole Indy Squadron needs to return to the very basics that Stephen had in mind when he and Dory, Scott, Alice and the others put it all together and started doing it. If people from the outside are going to ruin the spirit of the Indy Squadron then we need to be the ones to set the standards and say NO MORE! We love our Indy Squadron!!

See you all soon!!

[Stephen]

I don't contradict anything you've said, but honestly, I think there's an ebb and flow to that stuff. The really hateful stuff comes from a very few people on their very worst days, and to be honest, they weed themselves out over time, either so angry that they don't come back or too embarassed by their own behavior.

And I'm a firm believer that "these ARE the good old days." While we've had a zillion great times in the past, we've also had some instances where people did not get along. One particular person took a personal hatred to me and slammed down his dice and walked out of the room and never returned (didn't know I was THAT bad!). Terry got on Dory's nerves a few times. I got on Terry's nerves a few times and in retrospect, I think he was right to be impatient with me. One particular player didn't seem to be happy no matter what we did.

So while I think you're right, I don't think its due to a change of heart at Indy or the particular mix of players we have now. My suggestion is that the senior players relax, take a deep breath and try to stifle our opinions a bit - and I can say that since I'm the most overly-opinionated person on the planet. The witnessing of rolls is only a big deal in the tourney games and we've always been more strict in the big games anyway.

Each of us has our own little nuances that rub others the wrong way - I have an entire toolbox of them, I'm sure. But the answer isn't withdrawal... its coming out even more frequently and contributing to the level headed and mature play that the game needs.

[jenhenducky]

Kevin,
Define, "people from the outside."

Thanks,
Jennifer

[KevinR]

You're right Stephen, I stand corrected. I do think most of the time our events are pretty fun, I've just noticed these little things here and there and don't ever remember them being around in the "good old days". But then again, I am sure in a few years we WILL look back on these as the "good old days".
I do still think everyone has gotten too doggone competitive at times and we all need to lighten up. (Me included).

My opinion on the Armistice Day events with Evan will not change, however. But I can hold those opinions to myself.

Let me repeat that I don't blame Evan or Rick at all. I guess the only course of action will be to introduce the Dawn Patrol world to Garrett Richeson..........................

[KevinR]

By people from the outside I meant people from the society who come in and try to control the gameplay at Indy.
At our championship event we had 6 players playing against an 8 year old boy with a jammed gun who still refused to leave.
The comment was made by one society longtimer that in society tourneys you NEVER leave a tournament table if there are points on the board to be gained.
To me this is just silly and in no way, shape, or form, fair or sportsmanlike. The game was over and should have been called at that time.

I feel very strongly that the society would like to take over Indy Squadron, but to me we have always had our own identity.

I also feel like the guy who has held Indy Squadron together all these years is Stephen Skinner and he is currently almost in a box where he has to watch everything he has to say or people will jump down his throat.
He hasn't said this, but I notice it all the time!
I wouldn't be a Dawn Patrol player if I hadn't been introduced to it by Stephen, and for me the best times were always playing around his table with a good group of friends and having fun.
All of this competitiveness has just left a sour taste in my mouth.

Nothing personal to anyone Jennifer!

[Stephen]

Jennifer, I can see why you asked the question, but I don't think he meant it maliciously.

When people go to fly at another squadron they naturally think that the way they've always played is the way it should be done in other places as well (I'm sure we do the same thing when we're on the road). So the first thing they do is start pontificating about how your rule is all wrong and you should do it the way that Their Home Squadron does. The only problem is that they are not at Their Home Squadron. They are a guest at your squadron.

Indy's big events have grown enough to attract many out of town players over the past five or six years - which I think is wonderful and take as a huge complement to our group. But it has led to some occasional contention from those who just can't abide something in our house rules. I think Kevin is concerned that a more relaxed atmosphere continue here in Indy.

For my part, I just consider it the price of growing. I'm happy to have others here (as is Kevin and everyone else) and yes, someone will occasionally rip into us over a rule that they hate. So be it. I wish folks could relax a little, too, but I'm still glad that they're here.

[georgefernandis]

Thanks......