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Smoking
Sept 7, 2007 14:49:30 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Sept 7, 2007 14:49:30 GMT -5
During last nights VDP game a player was hit and had a smoking engine after the first turn. He was still able to fly and fight as if nothing was wrong (albeit with the 100' penalty on shot distances of course) but it just seems odd to me that a pilot would be able to ignore the smoke from his engine and continue flying as if nothing was wrong. I'd think the first thing a pilot with a smoking engine would do would be to try to land as quickly as possible. I'd think the rules would say something along the lines of "If your engine is smoking you need to roll a 1d6 at the beginning of every turn to see if it quits." That would force a pilot to look for a suitable landing area since he probably doesn't know exactly what the damage is and/or what will happen next. Or, if pilots routinely ignored their smoking crates and carried on, please let me know. It just seems odd to me that there are times in DP when a smoking engine can be essentially ignored.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Smoking
Sept 7, 2007 16:40:37 GMT -5
Post by albpilot on Sept 7, 2007 16:40:37 GMT -5
There are many things that can cause smoke in a hot engine, not all of them are necessarily problematic. I think this would be an unnecessary complication of the rules to no great effect. Just my opinion of course.
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Smoking
Sept 7, 2007 17:15:54 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Sept 7, 2007 17:15:54 GMT -5
I'm not necessarily suggesting a rule change, I'm just wondering what the basis is for the rule that allows a pilot to essentially ignore what should force him to find a place to land. Anytime an aircraft is smoking that means it's losing either fuel, oil, and/or water, any of which may cause the engine to stop (or worse) at some unknown time in the future. From everything I've ever seen, smoke would cause any pilot to immediately look for a place to put down. It just seems odd that that's not the case in DP.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Smoking
Sept 12, 2007 16:14:52 GMT -5
Post by albpilot on Sept 12, 2007 16:14:52 GMT -5
So, you'd want to treat this kinda like a critial wound (for the plane)...?
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Smoking
Sept 12, 2007 21:01:47 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Sept 12, 2007 21:01:47 GMT -5
I'm just thinking a smoking plane would be something critical to the pilot and he wouldn't be able to ignore it. One of the "house" rules people use is hidden damage and this is sort of similar in that if a pilot's plane was hit in the engine he wouldn't necessarily know what the problem is. He'd get hit, see the smoke or fuel spray or water and know he'd have to get to the ground as soon as possible. In DP the pilot has far more info than a real pilot has when he sees; 6* Carburetor hit - no effect. If his plane is smoking, there has to be an effect somewhere and the pilot wouldn't be able to simply ignore it.
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Smoking
Sept 14, 2007 16:26:32 GMT -5
Post by jrmcintyre on Sept 14, 2007 16:26:32 GMT -5
As a gentle reminder; A turn in DP is 20 seconds. As an example: six turns translates to two minutes. In that time frame, I would worry more about getting shot to death than if my engine is having problems during that time.
Another consideration: we usually gloss over the fact that when we start a scenario, the planes already had to fly over the terrain to get to where they are at the beginning of the scenario and, logically, the pilots would already have some sense of what terrain were below them.
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Smoking
Nov 12, 2007 20:24:10 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Nov 12, 2007 20:24:10 GMT -5
I agree that a pilot would worry more about defending himself, but apart from evading bullets his primary concern would be getting his plane on the ground. He wouldn't simply be able to ignore a engine that's emitting smoke/fuel/water vapor and fly around as if it was nothing and continue to attack.
I think any type of smoking engine should have a die roll associated with it. The pilot has to roll a die at the beginning of the turn with a 1 meaning his engine has quit. It would force a pilot with a smoking engine to seek a place to land before his engine dies on him. Aircraft don't have an overabundance of fluids on board, in fact they have the minimum to get by. Any loss of oil, water, or fuel is something that requires immediate attention and should be that way in DP. The die roll would force the pilot to make a conscious decision "Do I dive and find a place to land or do I ignore it and eventually have my engine die?"
In a nutshell, I'm saying we could ask any number of combat pilots anywhere throughout history, and I'm sure the response would be 100% that there's no such thing as "no effect" engine smoke. In fact, maybe I'll ask a few of the ones I work with tomorrow.
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kazorm
Lieutenant
2005-06-07 Indy Squadron Champion
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." - Ghandi
Posts: 245
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Smoking
Nov 22, 2007 19:34:17 GMT -5
Post by kazorm on Nov 22, 2007 19:34:17 GMT -5
Frankly, You are full af schmidt!!!! A small leak in a manifold gasket could give off a large amount fo smoke, but not affect the engine whatsoever!!!! The critical hits in this game have been given CONSIDERABLE thought beforehand, and if you do not agree, let's see you do better!!!
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kazorm
Lieutenant
2005-06-07 Indy Squadron Champion
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." - Ghandi
Posts: 245
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Smoking
Nov 22, 2007 19:36:12 GMT -5
Post by kazorm on Nov 22, 2007 19:36:12 GMT -5
Furthermore, most pilots attention was on what was before them, and most would not know they were smoking until much later if at all .
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Rex
Lieutenant
Posts: 118
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Smoking
Nov 28, 2007 0:26:07 GMT -5
Post by Rex on Nov 28, 2007 0:26:07 GMT -5
Taken as a whole, the majority of cases in DP where a plane is smoking are associated with much more serious engine Crits.
The reason for including the option of smoking without any other problems is to keep the other pilots honest. No one every knows if you are out of the fight just because you are smoking.
I think it is a good thing, just for this reason. It keeps your opponents guessing.
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Post by kirkh on Dec 4, 2007 8:01:55 GMT -5
Frankly, You are full af schmidt!!!! A small leak in a manifold gasket could give off a large amount fo smoke, but not affect the engine whatsoever!!!! The critical hits in this game have been given CONSIDERABLE thought beforehand, and if you do not agree, let's see you do better!!! So what you're telling me is that during the heat of battle when a pilot gets hit in the engine, he's able to instantaneously diagnose where he's been hit and know exactly what the results of that engine hit are? Sounds pretty preposterous to me. I think it's FAR more realistic to assume a pilot doesn't know exactly where he's been hit and/or what the results will be. That being the case, if he has oil or water or fuel hitting him in the face he's going to immediately do what it takes to get his aircraft out of harms way. How many times have YOU been flying with a smoking, single engined airplane?
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Post by albpilot on Dec 4, 2007 8:24:55 GMT -5
Frankly, You are full af schmidt!!!! A small leak in a manifold gasket could give off a large amount fo smoke, but not affect the engine whatsoever!!!! The critical hits in this game have been given CONSIDERABLE thought beforehand, and if you do not agree, let's see you do better!!! So what you're telling me is that during the heat of battle when a pilot gets hit in the engine, he's able to instantaneously diagnose where he's been hit and know exactly what the results of that engine hit are? Sounds pretty preposterous to me. I think it's FAR more realistic to assume a pilot doesn't know exactly where he's been hit and/or what the results will be. That being the case, if he has oil or water or fuel hitting him in the face he's going to immediately do what it takes to get his aircraft out of harms way. How many times have YOU been flying with a smoking, single engined airplane? Oh, goodie, a flame war....just like the old saying, where there's SMOKE there's flames....
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Smoking
Dec 4, 2007 12:50:02 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Dec 4, 2007 12:50:02 GMT -5
That's right, and that smoke would require immediate attention. I couldn't just ignore it and fly around as if the spray hitting me in the face doesn't matter. I think it just comes down to the philosophy of how the crit tables were originally generated. My question is this; Would the pilot immediately know exactly what has been hit and know exactly what will happen as a result of that hit? I think the answer is no - especially when it comes to engine hits. With airframe hits he can tell what's shredded and broken and not working correctly. With an engine hit all he'll know is he was hit and that he's now got something spraying onto his goggles. I'm sure he'll know whether it's water, oil, or fuel, but as far as what exactly has been hit and what it's effects are (both short and long term), I doubt it. That particular crit says the pilot knows that a "mechanism" has been hit and that it has no effect on his airplane other than to cause it to lose fluids that are somehow not important enough to have to address anytime soon. I just think with the progression of the game over the years that this is something that would have changed a long time ago. I know of no airplane, either single or multi-engined, where smoke of any kind can be ignored. I understand the thinking may have been; "A 20 turn game only simulates 400 seconds of real time so the pilot knows he can ignore it for that long." but if that's the case I still think that's wrong. I think there should be a general rule regarding smoking aircraft that says they risk losing an engine every turn they're still flying. Granted it could be a small percentage chance, maybe 5-10%, but the pilot should have to address it and not simply say "Gee all this smoke from my engine means I have to add 1 when I shoot."
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alien01
Lieutenant
"Talk is cheap. Let's go play." Johnny Unitas
Posts: 123
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Smoking
Dec 4, 2007 17:46:51 GMT -5
Post by alien01 on Dec 4, 2007 17:46:51 GMT -5
I didn't intend to enter this debate at all, but I see a side issue I can't resist commenting on. "Gee all this smoke from my engine means I have to add 1 when I shoot." That's NOT what smoke means (or not the only thing). It means you add 100' to the range of your shot. At 100' longer range you subtract 1 from the number you need to hit, modifiy the table you use for damage if you do hit, and, if your original range was 450', you don't shoot at all.
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Smoking
Dec 4, 2007 21:47:31 GMT -5
Post by kirkh on Dec 4, 2007 21:47:31 GMT -5
Yes I paraphrased, but the gist of my comment was that the smoking engine only effects the player by adversely effecting his/her shooting, which seems silly to me.
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