Errors in New Issue of ISD

[Stephen]

My apologies to all (especially Rick) for fouling up this issue...

I knew I had a wild, hectic travel schedule coming up in December so I had saved Rick's excellent write up on the Wingman Tourney for this issue. But after a month's absence I returned, was hustling to get the issue out and totally forgot that I had banked it as a headline story for the first issue of the year.

Instead, since my contract from Schiffer had just arrived the day before, I used that as filler material for an issue that had no game reports available whatsoever (we hadn't played since November).

Then, going through my old email today, I ran across Rick's article that I had been saving and was pretty frustrated. The issue had already been formatted and in order to keep from re-doing the entire issue, I put it up as a right-side headline piece instead so I would only have to do about half the work again.

The issue was only released yesterday so most people haven't even seen it yet (we don't get many hits on Sundays), so enjoy the issue and pardon your editor's goof ups. If you hadn't see this issue yet and you think it looks great and don't know what I'm talking about, so much the better... read the articles and enjoy.

[albpilot]

NBD dude.

[albpilot]

An error in the new ISD. It is mentioned that the mg fire at Stephen's pilot was treated as AA fire. It was not. I never said it was and fully expected Stephen to fire at that point, and was surprised when he didn't (although he was worried about his pilot and I kinda understand that). So, there was no error, there was a FitS lapse.

[albpilot]

In fact, the more I read that, the more it seems to not make sense. You said he came in at 100 ft, took a head on (but treated it like AA and so didn't shoot) which knocked his engine out, but 2 sentences later you said he shot from 300 feet? Did he glide around and wheedle his guns into firing?

Might want to review this one. By the way, from my records the balloon didn't go down (at least I didn't write it down that way).

[Stephen]

Yes, it could be called a Fits lapse. The game cannot move into the declaration and pre-movement phase until all declared shots are resolved in the attack resolution phase. My shot was announced and targeted (my mission log shows it) but due to my being distracted (getting blown away does that to you) we moved on to the declaration and pre-movement phase of the next turn without resolving all firing from the previous turn. Fits lapse, mistake, goof up, call it what you like... we went to the next phase without finishing the previous.

No, I did not glide around and wheedle my guns into firing... I could not do that because I didn't have enough altitude and had to land immediately on the following turn. But numbers were called and the following turn started BEFORE ALL FIRING HAD BEEN COMPLETED from the existing turn. Its more my fault than anything because I didn't speak up at the time... I was trying to stay alive.

Still, the shot was declared, it was a legal shot, I earned it the hard way and got shot down for my trouble, and the game should not have proceeded until the shot was taken. So when we got home and realized what had occured, I took the missing shot and had SD witness it. It hit for one hit factor and the balloon deflated. That is what should have occured at the table before numbers were rolled.

If you, Scott and SD decide otherwise I'll mark it off, but no one's life was at stake except my own, the shot was properly announced, gun jams were rolled at the time, ammo points were deducted from my guns at the time, my mission log shows it, we went to the next phase of the game without finishing the previous, and it doesn't hurt anyone else for me to be able to take the shot. So by golly, I did, and had it witnessed by another player as post-facto shots are supposed to be under 7th ed. rules.

[Stephen]

albpilot said:

An error in the new ISD. It is mentioned that the mg fire at Stephen's pilot was treated as AA fire. It was not.

It was by me because the MG's fired first. I took down the damage, checked for critical hits and applied them immediately as if they were fired by AA. Being stressed at the moment I failed to realize that the MG's had fired out of turn and I took them as if they had been AA.

That's not to blame you because I should have caught it at the time. But p.24 of the rules says that "defenders roll for flak and onion hits and damage immediately prior to attacking planes' shots on balloons." However, it specifies that "ground machine gun fire is rolled last." So the MG's fired out of turn - they cannot shoot until all airplane firing has been completed.

But once I started taking MG fire I was too concerned about staying alive to notice at the time. I accept most of the blame here and if you guys want me to strike the kill I'll do so, but I believe that the shot should have been taken. It was announced, jams were rolled and ammo pts were deducted and MG fire should not have occured until the balloon attack was complete.

[albpilot]

admin said:

Yes, it could be called a Fits lapse...So when we got home and realized what had occured, I took the missing shot and had SD witness it. It hit for one hit factor and the balloon deflated. That is what should have occured at the table before numbers were rolled.

If you, Scott and SD decide otherwise I'll mark it off, but no one's life was at stake except my own, the shot was properly announced, gun jams were rolled at the time, ammo points were deducted from my guns at the time, my mission log shows it, we went to the next phase of the game without finishing the previous, and it doesn't hurt anyone else for me to be able to take the shot. So by golly, I did, and had it witnessed by another player as post-facto shots are supposed to be under 7th ed. rules.

Speaking hypothetically...there are any number of precedents where players making a FitS lapse were not allowed to correct their mistake. In fact, I can think of at least 3 IndySquadron games where a player forgot to roll for his shot and was told it was too late after the next turn's numbers. Why should you be allowed to? I think I'll go back to the game where Dunzel died and not move him one square further than my plane could go without diving and that Ken could support, maybe he'll still be alive.

Practically speaking, I don't know that I care all that much if you get the kill on the balloon, I'm more worried about setting a precedent in a fit of pique and possible ramifications down the road. If you think this is a good idea, let's make it an IndySquadron rule that anyone who has a FitS lapse can correct it when the game is over. Heck, let's just go whole hog and say if a FitS lapse occurs, it can be corrected RIGHT THEN, that way we save people from their own goofs. If not, I think you'd be better off letting this one go. But I find it ironic that the person who complains about 'legislated movement' and 'let's allow a person to fly their own plane' wants to now go against what I've seen as a fairly concrete interpretation of how the game is played just because he forgot to take a shot.

Not trying to be overly critical here, just my $.02

What's Scott have to say about it?

[Stephen]

albpilot said:

Speaking hypothetically...there are any number of precedents where players making a FitS lapse were not allowed to correct their mistake.

I certainly could and should have caught it at the moment, but in fairness the MG's did fire out of turn.

I can think of at least 3 IndySquadron games where a player forgot to roll for his shot and was told it was too late after the next turn's numbers. Why should you be allowed to?

I can think of more than that. However, the issue in each of those cases was not the welfare of the shooter but the welfare of the one being shot. In this case there is no such party, and in this case other factors contributed to the situation.

But I find it ironic that the person who complains about 'legislated movement' and 'let's allow a person to fly their own plane' wants to now go against what I've seen as a fairly concrete interpretation of how the game is played just because he forgot to take a shot.

Again, there's a bit more to it than that but its not really worth making that big a deal out of it. We'll skip the shot and forget it. I should have stopped the MG's as soon as they started firing out of turn and I didn't. I shouldn't have performed a critical check before my shot and I did. So be it.

[albpilot]

Again, I don't really have anything against you taking it. If Scott thinks it's ok I'd say let it stand as you rolled it out. I'm just leery of making decisions that could come back to bite us in the nether regions.

[albpilot]

And I'm still a bit curious why I didn't get an assignment on the Alb D-II? Scott got one and he's played as many times as I have....I feel so left out....

[Stephen]

You did. But I didn't save it in WORD before I cut and pasted it onto the site. Don't feel left out. I'll fix it.

[albpilot]

Thanks. I figure I'm as good as anyone else in an Alb and I wouldn't want anyone else to get stuck in that dog.