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Post by Stephen on Feb 20, 2007 23:26:44 GMT -5
I'm glad that ISD gave Rick a chance to vent some frustration re: Mini Campaign XI... that's a good thing and it was printed entirely and unedited. I also resisted the urge to write my own feelings into the article as a response. But there were a couple of observations that I think could be qualified and this is the appropriate place to do so:
The 4 most regular players were evenly distributed among the teams.
Prior to the first game Indy had held 5 squadron gaming days in 2006. Ken had attended 80% of them (4 of the 5), while Kevin had attended only 40% of them (2 of 5). Further, the campaign started in October and Kevin had not played at all since the previous April.
So when the campaign began, Ken, Rick, Stephen and Stephen Dale were the most regular and experienced players in the squadron and they were evenly and fairly distributed among the two teams to ensure an equitable spread of experience and regularity.
No one - not even Ken - at that time knew that his absence would later hurt the Germans. No one had a crystal ball. The teams were divided as evenly and fairly as could be done given the knowledge we had at the time.
On the contrary. NOT doctoring the stats guarantees a defeat.
In Mini Campaign V, single gun SPAD 7's took on Albatros DIII's and by the third game they had fallen behind by more than 200 points. Despite the performance advantage of the SPAD's, the single guns simply could not score enough points to make a game of it. I was thoroughly chastised by everyone at the time for making such an unbalanced campaign. And no, I was not German... I was on the SPAD team and got stomped.
In Mini Campaign VII we had an identical set up - Sopwith Triplanes vs. Albatros DIII's. The Tripes were decimated by a score of 229-55... in the first game!! In the entire campaign the closest they got was when they were only losing by 181 points! Despite their performance advantage, the single guns simply could not hold their own. Once again I was blamed for ruining the campaign. And no, I was not a German this time either... I had a Triplane and got stomped.
I did not design the current Black Flight mini campaign - Stephen Dale did. When he was creating it I told him that to avoid being faulted later, that he should try to give the British something that might keep the campaign somewhat even... I suggested including some of the two-gun Tripes that were produced in the late summer of 1917 by the Sopwith factory and tested in the field by Lt. Mel Alexander and several other members of Black Flight... or, "doctoring" the stats, if you will (BTW, the two gun Tripes have performance penalties for the extra weight of another MG... no performance stats were "doctored"... in fact, quite the opposite. They lost performance).
The result was the closest scores ever produced in any Indy Squadron mini campaign over the last twenty years, not only after game one, but also after game two. And if the Germans had had experienced players in game three they would likely have blown the British out of the water and taken over the campaign... I'm sorry that they did not have experienced players, but no one foresaw Ken leaving and the ensuing imbalance it created. And even with Ken's absence, even the slightest bit of luck or some decent flying would have kept it somewhat balanced. The Germans had neither last weekend.
I looked up some stats tonight and yes, several teams have come back from 150-250 point deficits with two games to play and all is not lost. It was not "fixed," the result is not "preordained" and it can still be quite enjoyable if we want it to. I did not design this campaign and I don't plan on designing the next one, either... volunteers are solicited.
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albpilot
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Post by albpilot on Feb 21, 2007 9:13:15 GMT -5
Cool, thanks for the input. It's actually kinda nice to be able to discuss things without tempers flaring.
One observation...I think you have the plane tally for the Brits wrong. If you had up the 2 standard Triplanes and 1 N12, how is one of those now destroyed (unless there was something happen I didn't notice)? Or did you all make a mistake in plane allocation prior to the game?
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Post by Stephen on Feb 21, 2007 10:06:41 GMT -5
I failed to include the replacement airplane that we had to roll up just prior to the game, so one additional airplane should be added to the British roster. You'll recall our excitement just prior to the game when we came very close to rolling up a Camel but got a standard Tripe instead? That was it.
The campaign rules state that if more pilots are available than airplanes, then the squadron leader rolls up a new plane prior to the game (so no one has to sit out of the game). Kevin was without a plane since his twin gun Tripe was still out of action. The first option was to call Dory and ask for her plane, but she could not be reached by phone. So another plane was rolled. I'll re-do the chart and include it.
Same situation for the Germans - if all of your possible pilots show for the next game (heaven forbid), you won't have enough Albs. The first option is to use the one assigned to Ken/Scott, then get permission from other pilots to use theirs, and then, if you still have more players than pilots, roll them up on the plane replacement chart.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
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I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
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Post by albpilot on Feb 21, 2007 10:54:30 GMT -5
I failed to include the replacement airplane that we had to roll up just prior to the game, so one additional airplane should be added to the British roster. You'll recall our excitement just prior to the game when we came very close to rolling up a Camel but got a standard Tripe instead? That was it. The campaign rules state that if more pilots are available than airplanes, then the squadron leader rolls up a new plane prior to the game (so no one has to sit out of the game). Kevin was without a plane since his twin gun Tripe was still out of action. The first option was to call Dory and ask for her plane, but she could not be reached by phone. So another plane was rolled. I'll re-do the chart and include it. Same situation for the Germans - if all of your possible pilots show for the next game (heaven forbid), you won't have enough Albs. The first option is to use the one assigned to Ken/Scott, then get permission from other pilots to use theirs, and then, if you still have more players than pilots, roll them up on the plane replacement chart. If we have 5 players for the Germans it'd be a miracle. And if you'll recall, we rolled for BOTH German planes, the result of one being that none was available, so I think 5 would be the max that could play on the german side. Thanks for explaining that, but if what you say is true, wouldn't you then have 2 twin guns, 2 regular tripes available?
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Post by Stephen on Feb 21, 2007 11:48:49 GMT -5
Yes, four Tripes. The twin gun Tripes of me and Kevin are available again after getting beaten up badly in the first game. Then Dory's Tripe is still flying and Kevin's back up Tripe will be available as an open mount.
You should pester Kevin to bring Wyatt, Billy and Wayne back. Billy is a new player but he WILL stay on mission... guaranteed. Wyatt probably will as well and Scott should be home by then. You'll still be short on experience unless Scott shows, but 10-12 guns will be mighty hard to beat.
Best case scenario for the Germans is six Huns vs. three Brits, Germans win game mission (+100), shoot down two Brits (+60) and score well on shooting (+100 is very possible for the team). That would give the Germans the lead back in one game.
That is realistic, but only if at least four Germans show up... and you really need five, the fifth being Scott. His experience would be a huge factor.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Post by albpilot on Feb 21, 2007 16:20:16 GMT -5
On the contrary. NOT doctoring the stats guarantees a defeat. In Mini Campaign V, single gun SPAD 7's took on Albatros DIII's and by the third game they had fallen behind by more than 200 points. Despite the performance advantage of the SPAD's, the single guns simply could not score enough points to make a game of it. I was thoroughly chastised by everyone at the time for making such an unbalanced campaign. And no, I was not German... I was on the SPAD team and got stomped. In Mini Campaign VII we had an identical set up - Sopwith Triplanes vs. Albatros DIII's. The Tripes were decimated by a score of 229-55... in the first game!! In the entire campaign the closest they got was when they were only losing by 181 points! Despite their performance advantage, the single guns simply could not hold their own. Once again I was blamed for ruining the campaign. And no, I was not a German this time either... I had a Triplane and got stomped. I did not design the current Black Flight mini campaign - Stephen Dale did. When he was creating it I told him that to avoid being faulted later, that he should try to give the British something that might keep the campaign somewhat even... I suggested including some of the two-gun Tripes that were produced in the late summer of 1917 by the Sopwith factory and tested in the field by Lt. Mel Alexander and several other members of Black Flight... or, "doctoring" the stats, if you will (BTW, the two gun Tripes have performance penalties for the extra weight of another MG... no performance stats were "doctored"... in fact, quite the opposite. They lost performance). The result was the closest scores ever produced in any Indy Squadron mini campaign over the last twenty years, not only after game one, but also after game two. And if the Germans had had experienced players in game three they would likely have blown the British out of the water and taken over the campaign... I'm sorry that they did not have experienced players, but no one foresaw Ken leaving and the ensuing imbalance it created. And even with Ken's absence, even the slightest bit of luck or some decent flying would have kept it somewhat balanced. The Germans had neither last weekend. I looked up some stats tonight and yes, several teams have come back from 150-250 point deficits with two games to play and all is not lost. It was not "fixed," the result is not "preordained" and it can still be quite enjoyable if we want it to. I did not design this campaign and I don't plan on designing the next one, either... volunteers are solicited. Ok, so I understand the reasons you did it, but I think you might have considered making it more realistic by reducing the turn spd 10mph for the twin gun tripes and changing their stall to 60 to reflect the extra weight. Same for the N12 with the extra deck gun. Just a thought.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 21, 2007 16:35:31 GMT -5
I thought about -10 turn speed for the two gun Tripes, but didn't for two reasons: 1) Mel Alexander's letters to me indicated a slower climb, and 2) it is possible for the Germans to get revised stats DIII's which would help make up the turn speed difference but still leave them at a climb disadvantage. So we gave the Tripes a climb and ceiling penalty instead of a turn speed penalty. Not sure if it was a perfect solution but that was the logic. If either of us had thought of the stall speed, I'd have done that, too... but I didn't.
The N.12's couldn't absorb any penalties at all... they have 9 hf's in the wings and were far and away the weakest performers in the game. But we had to use them because its a historical campaign and they were the plane that RNAS 10 flew before going to Tripes. So the only option to keep them in the air was to give them some help. Stephen Dale flew one in the first game and was still blown out of the sky after the first few turns. If the Germans had bothered to shoot at it in the last game, the other one would have gone down then, too. There was just no reasonable way to penalize the N.12's.
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albpilot
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I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
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Post by albpilot on Feb 21, 2007 20:47:08 GMT -5
I thought about -10 turn speed for the two gun Tripes, but didn't for two reasons: 1) Mel Alexander's letters to me indicated a slower climb, and 2) it is possible for the Germans to get revised stats DIII's which would help make up the turn speed difference but still leave them at a climb disadvantage. So we gave the Tripes a climb and ceiling penalty instead of a turn speed penalty. Not sure if it was a perfect solution but that was the logic. If either of us had thought of the stall speed, I'd have done that, too... but I didn't. The N.12's couldn't absorb any penalties at all... they have 9 hf's in the wings and were far and away the weakest performers in the game. But we had to use them because its a historical campaign and they were the plane that RNAS 10 flew before going to Tripes. So the only option to keep them in the air was to give them some help. Stephen Dale flew one in the first game and was still blown out of the sky after the first few turns. If the Germans had bothered to shoot at it in the last game, the other one would have gone down then, too. There was just no reasonable way to penalize the N.12's. I wouldn't say the N12s needed penalized, but to give one 2 deck guns and an increased turn speed would hardly be penalizing them....oh wait, that happened, didn't it? : ) If you want me to design the next campaign I'd be happy to do so. I can take the basic premise we used for the HP campaign and adapt it. The scoring will change some but it should be do-able (and should give you and SD something to bash me about, haha).
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V
Infantry Private First Class
Red Baron Fight X Champion
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Post by V on Feb 21, 2007 21:03:55 GMT -5
Really since none of us saw this type of thing coming I wouldn't be entirely opposed to rerolling sides a bit if we get the same setup as last game playerswise. It's just a silly game, we can change whatever we want about it.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 21, 2007 21:59:12 GMT -5
I wouldn't say the N12s needed penalized, but to give one 2 deck guns and an increased turn speed Lewis guns are not deck guns. And neither N.12 got a ff gun and a turn speed bonus; they got one or the other. The ff guns were added so that if the aircraft situation became so bad that they had to be flown as fighters, they would be armed. The German Alb CVII could have been flown as a fighter, but there is no standard ff gun on N.12. When you start complaining about not flying against an unarmed airplane, you're running out of things to complain about. Anyone who wants to is welcome.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
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I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
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Post by albpilot on Feb 22, 2007 7:43:51 GMT -5
LOL. Actually, said complaint is probably more based in a misread of the plane stats by me than anything.... I coulda swore it said 2 FF Deck guns (which in my mind equates to Vickers for some silly reason). No biggie there.
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
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Post by KevinR on Feb 22, 2007 14:15:24 GMT -5
One quick error I have noticed that I wanted to set straight: Dory was reached and she said I could use her plane. I flew Dory's plane in the mission.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 24, 2007 11:59:53 GMT -5
Oops... sorry. Got that wrong. As it turned out, Stephen Dale's pilot was actually the one who was to get a replacement a/c after losing his plane in an earlier mission. The rules state that planes that are down for repairs are still on squadron strength, therefore you cannot roll a replacement for them... and Kevin's two gun tripe was mangled but still on squadron strength and so no replacement could be rolled for it.
And Stephen Dale was indeed the one who made the roll for the new plane, although circumstantially he had to fly the N.12 for this mission. So all's well that ends well. You were in Dory's plane, SD had to roll up his own plane anyway and did (even though he was temporarily in a N.12 for this mission) and the allied plane roster is still correct. I just had the plane assignments wrong. Thanks.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
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I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
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Post by albpilot on Feb 24, 2007 16:14:18 GMT -5
If that is the case then, how did you all manage to get 2 single gun tripes in the air if one of them was destroyed, and one of them was Kevin? Was Stephen flying one that was rolled up prior to the mission? I'm a bit confused now.
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Post by Stephen on Feb 25, 2007 16:27:16 GMT -5
If that is the case then, how did you all manage to get 2 single gun tripes in the air if one of them was destroyed, and one of them was Kevin? Was Stephen flying one that was rolled up prior to the mission? I'm a bit confused now. That's okay... its a good question. Stephen Dale's standard Tripe was destroyed in Gm 1 and he had a replacement roll coming for a new plane. However, we didn't bother rolling up another fighter for Gm 2 because SD volunteered to fly the N.12 in Gm 2 (and would fly it again in Gm 3). When Gm 3 came, SD rolled up another fighter (turned out to be a standard Tripe). I mistakenly noted that fighter as being assigned to Kevin, who needed a plane for Gm 3. But in reality Kevin had flown Dory's Tripe, and the newly rolled Tripe was a replacement for SD's Gm 1 loss. Make sense? My bad for mistakenly assigning the new Tripe to Kevin... but in the end it makes no difference. We needed a new fighter and we rolled for one. Only the name on it changed.
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