What Happened

[bergovoy]

It's midnight, and the new Red Baron champ must have been crowned, enquiring minds want to know.

George

[Stephen]

We had a ball! That's what happened!

There were ten people from four states at RBF XVII, and the scenario pitted four Camel 150's against two Tripes and four Albatri. My wingmen, Mark Celmins, Stephen Dale and Ken Mrozak, flew exceptionally well (no kidding). They not only flew remarkably good missions, but even more importantly there were VERY few mistakes by the Brit team. It paid off because three of our four pilots came home and we swept the top three positions.

The Germans did not "make mistakes," per se, but they did not do what Albatrosses had to do to win... they frequently split up and chased the Camels instead of consistently forcing the Camels to bring the fight to them. This worked heavily in our favor (Brits). The Germans did not do things wrong, but they didn't force a close, tight dogfight. As a result we were able to isolate their Albs one at a time and take them out with little threat to ourselves. On the one occasion when we erred and they drew us in, I took a wound and Stephen Dale and Mark were both pounded.

IMHO, what the Germans needed most was Rick in an Alb and Dan in a Tripe (it was the other way around). Along with Scott J and Alice, Rick is the local Albmeister and he knows what it takes to make them win. Dan, meanwhile, could have used his Tripe to go anywhere on the board he was needed, keep the Albs together and prevent the Tripes from running off and leaving their own wingmen. Ten guns to six in a close dogfight and the Camels get wiped out.

That didn't happen, and the Brits stole the show.

Woo Hoo!!!

[noski]

Unfortunately, the radios on the German aircraft were not working. The Brits discussed strategy after nearly every turn, making sure that their weak player did not duplicate any mistake he made in the previous turn. Even after I disputed the table talk ,it continued. Meanwhile, the Germans kept quiet as a 12 year old (with not much experience) handled the MvR plane and made mistakes. I DID point MvR in the direction of the German lines after he had been crit wounded but the game was decided by then. This may sound like sour grapes but for a group that touts limited intelligence, it was noticably lacking in the RBF this year.

[Stephen]

There were some cases where I agree and one in particular where I was guilty as charged... I admitted it then and I do now. However, the impact is a bit overstated.

Mark moved back into the middle of the Albs on turn two and yes, Ken and I discussed it briefly in his presence and shouldn't have. But no mention was made until after the turn was complete and no moves could be taken back and the net effect was zero. Yes, perhaps it might have made a difference later in the game, but as scattered as the Albs were there was no "middle" to fly into later in the game, so any claim that the Germans lost over this is not just hypothetical but also very unlikely. And further still, Ken and I both followed Mark right back into the whole mess of Albs in the same game turn, so we CERTAINLY didn't gain from it... in fact, I took a beating and got a pilot wound over it and nearly lost a quint ace!

I also mentioned that Stephen Dale made a fine move on turn one when he drew Ken to the opposite side of the board from the Albs for a box, but again, this was after the fact and obviously, never again was there a situation where the planes were lined up with the Tripes on the far side. It was a genuine complement on a good move - after the moves were completed and could not be changed - and had no further impact.

On two other occasions I asked Mark why he selected a certain shot (after the turn was over), he told me (but only after the moves were complete and could not be altered) and other than indicating that I understood his logic I made no further comment to promote or avoid a similar move in the future.

So yes, Ken and I spoke early on and we probably shouldn't have. But Stephen Dale was shot down early, I said nothing more to Mark other than the above and Ken needs no coaching from anyone, and it cannot be said that indepth strategy discussions were made after every turn or that they led to the German defeat.

If the Germans had flown in closer proximity and not chased the Camels we could have held two-hour conference calls with Mike Carr after every turn it and it would not have made a bit of difference. In order to have used our six guns, we would have had to fly into your ten and we would have gotten creamed. That was the difference in the game.

[Stephen]

Further musings, same topic...

I also hesitate to shortchange Mark and Stephen Dale. Whether or not a move is a "mistake" is often a matter of opinion and speculation rather than asbolute fact. Though I would have moved differently than they did on some occasions, I really believe that to credit them with anything other than a pretty good game is to shortchange their efforts. Although Ken and I should have let the first move go without comment, nobody was holding these guys' hands. They flew well.

Another thought... I even second guessed my own move on about turn 12, when I should have attacked but didn't. I even talked about it with you (Dan), and I still think I made a mistake on that turn. But again, the move was complete and I would hardly consider that table talk. I suppose its possible that someone might have looked at my counter, considered my move, then listened to you and I talk, then looked at their counter, and then run into some future game situation where the same logic could be applied and then altered their move accordingly... but that seems a bit of a stretch. The move was over and we were just talking about the game we were playing. That was the case on every occasion except the one at the beginning of the game where I agreed that the discussion was probably inappropriate.

[Stephen]

Didn't realize what you'd started, did you George?

[albpilot]

FYI, minor point - the smoke Stephen mentioned to my plane was infact a no effect oil seal hit. Didn't do a thing to me except increase my range on firing. Not that I was getting a lot of shots anyway...

[Stephen]

Guess I assume it was worse than that.

Still, from an offensive standpoint, smoke is a killer and really hurts your ability to score points. That and gun jams are a sure way to louse up your score.

[alien01]

Congrats to one and all. Sounds like a great game, for everyone except Bart whose dice seem to betray him in the clutch. Tough luck, man.

[noski]

To me, discussing strategy or tactics before during or after a turn or any time a game is in play is table talk. Telling Stephen Dale he made a good move( which it was!) is not table talk. Continuing on to explain why, is table talk. He could have been told after the game why it was a good move.
By telling Mark why he shouldn't have tried to box up in the middle of Albs, you made sure he didn't make the mistake again. If it was a pick-up game and Mark was a newbie, OK. But he was flying an ace and RBF is not a pick-up game.
I don't mean to imply that what I perceive to be table talk caused the Germans to finish poorly. But I believe it had an effect.

[Stephen]

Maybe so, and if it did then I offer profuse apologies and I do see your point. But many other points remain unconsidered... maybe the comment actually hurt the Brits by persuading Mark to fly so conservatively for most of the game? Who knows?

SD was shot down halfway through and Mark moved first for much of the game so even under the most conspiratorial view, any talking could have had only a minimal impact. I could be wrong, but I saw the real differences in the game being not SD or Mark, but 1) the Albs (sticking together early but not late) and 2) pilot hits (ours were light and survivable, yours were critical or fatal). No amount of table talk by the Brits could change either one.

[noski]

Ok. Nuff said. Bottom line is I had fun and I can now say I have flown over the skies of Indy in one of their official events.
I still feel bad for Bart tho...

[Stephen]

It was a lot of fun but it would be nice to see Rick, Bart and Stephen Dale have some luck in a tournament for a change. All three took pilots hits and died (IIRC). I was the luckiest pilot on the board since the two pilot hits I scored were critical or fatal, while the one I took was no effect. However, I'll take the luck and be thankful after my entire German roster was decimated in 2004 by light wounds... I guess it all comes around eventually.

And hats off to Dory and you (Dan) for flying major league aces in Albatrosses! That's a gutsy call, but its what makes RBF such a big deal. Foxxe, Bathgate, Leiter, your quad Alb ace, Dory's 18 mission Alb ace... no one seems shy when it comes to RBF and everyone takes big risks with big pilots. Even Stephen Dale took up his best guy... he may have "only" been 5/0, but if 5/0 is the best you've got then he means something to you. Ditto for Bart. Around here, flying RBF is sort of a badge of honor for a pilot because he survived against the best pilots everyone had and because the mortality rate is so high.

I think Dory's 18/4 Alb pilot has survived three RBF's now - in Albatrosses! That part of it is really fun.

[albpilot]

What WAS my best guy in DrI's was up there...