Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 16, 2010 18:53:57 GMT -5
Speaking of dodging questions and returning to original topics, let's revisit the last one I asked you... Alright I answered your question so answer one of mine: You claimed: "Osama Bin Laden repeatedly attempted, both before and after 9/11, to open diplomatic negotiations with the USA on multiple occasions." I asked: "Do you have any evidence, about before 9/11? And even if he wanted diplomatic negotiations it was on his terms only." You responded: "No, but you do. You already have truth! So please tell me about both the negotiation attempts by Bin Laden, and throw in details about Saddam as well. Thank you." I then explained that I am not omniscient and I asked for proof. You never gave me any. So, I will ask again, Did bin laden try to diplomatically negotiate with the United States before 9/11? And, if so, do you have any validated, unbiased, proof?
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Mar 16, 2010 20:51:45 GMT -5
Speaking of dodging questions and returning to original topics, let's revisit the last one I asked you... Alright I answered your question so answer one of mine: You claimed: "Osama Bin Laden repeatedly attempted, both before and after 9/11, to open diplomatic negotiations with the USA on multiple occasions." I asked: "Do you have any evidence, about before 9/11? And even if he wanted diplomatic negotiations it was on his terms only." You responded: "No, but you do. You already have truth! So please tell me about both the negotiation attempts by Bin Laden, and throw in details about Saddam as well. Thank you." I then explained that I am not omniscient and I asked for proof. You never gave me any. So, I will ask again, Did bin laden try to diplomatically negotiate with the United States before 9/11? And, if so, do you have any validated, unbiased, proof? The American sixth fleet lent Israel cluster bombs and a portion of their sixth fleet in 1982 when Israel was fighting Lebanon. - LEBANON NEVER ATTACKED US. AND WE DIRECTLY AIDED IN AN ATTACK ON THEIR COUNTRY.Osama Bin Laden has said these events were the motivation for the September 11th attacks. SEE HERE: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/30/alqaida.september11I asked for proof that he was not acting in defense. You never gave me any. So, I will ask again, wasn't Osama performing the very purpose you say government should serve? And if not , do you have any validated, unbiased, proof to prove otherwise? I provided you with the very facts you demand of everyone else and it is not unfair to ask for the same in return.... It is tremendously insulting to get your assumptions or ideas for an answer.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 16, 2010 21:28:56 GMT -5
Please Stephan Dale, before I tackle your question, I will wait for your dad to answer mine. Since I was kind enough to answer his, I would hope for the same courtesy.
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Mar 16, 2010 21:37:33 GMT -5
Please Stephan Dale, before I tackle your question, I will wait for your dad to answer mine. Since I was kind enough to answer his, I would hope for the same courtesy. That's fine I suppose. But my question should be an easy one to tackle given what you asked my dad. You are asking if Osama asked for negotiations of any sort, I am submitting that he was defending his people and unless you can provide proof to the contrary, he was not obliged to provide negotiations. *Sigh... I shall wait
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 16, 2010 21:52:15 GMT -5
I am asking for proof if he tried to negoiate with us before 9/11.
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Mar 16, 2010 21:55:30 GMT -5
I am asking if he tried to negoiate with us before 9/11. I understand that, but I do not believe he was obligated to after we initiated violence against his people in lebanon. I believe that unless there is evidence showing he was not acting in retaliation, that my question nullifies the basis on which your question to my father was asked.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 16, 2010 22:36:45 GMT -5
I am asking if he tried to negoiate with us before 9/11. I understand that, but I do not believe he was obligated to after we initiated violence against his people in lebanon. I believe that unless there is evidence showing he was not acting in retaliation, that my question nullifies the basis on which your question to my father was asked. Please stop trying to de-rail this thread. I will kindly ask that you not do so again. I will answer this question and your others after your dad answers mine. Please show me the same respect that I showed you both.
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Mar 17, 2010 12:56:49 GMT -5
Please stop trying to de-rail this thread. I will kindly ask that you not do so again. I will answer this question and your others after your dad answers mine. Please show me the same respect that I showed you both. I talked to my dad. He's sitting this one out. This debate is between you and I. YES. OSAMA DID ATTEMPT NEGOTIATIONS.Al-Qaeda was originally formed as the Maktab al-Khidamat organization. They were a group of freedom fighters (much like our militia in the war for independence.) to fend of the Soviet Unions invasion of the middle east during the late 70's and early 80's. DURING THIS POINT IN TIME WE WERE ALLIES WITH OSAMA. Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989. Look up Operation Cyclone on wikipedia if you want the sources. In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement (that we were funding via operation cyclone) told President George H. W. Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein."While we were funding the freedom fighters in the middle east during their fight against the soviets, we were also lending cluster bombs to Israel, along with portions of our sixth fleet to attack their LITERAL brothers and sisters in Lebanon. For proof, see my references to operation cyclone, and then look up the U.S.'s involvement in attacking Lebanon in 1982. Wikipedia provides proof of the truth of my statements. read the above line again. Now, go to wikipedia and look up Al-Qaeda. You will see under the section labeled Gulf War and the start of U.S. enmity that when the gulf war started, Osama had offered Saudi Arabia his forces to defend his homeland. Saudi Arabia sold out their own people because the U.S. wrote a bigger check, and exiled Osama Bin Laden. Do you understand what is happening Michael? We sent troops over willy nilly stomping on land that was Holy to Osama and his people. It wasn't our fight, we initiated this violence. Osama pleaded for years with the Saudi's to get the U.S. off their holy lands, AND WE DIDN'T LISTEN.He eventually got fed up and in 1996 issued a declaration of war, known as a fatwa. He stated that he was sick and tired of the infidels (US) and that he would fight by any means necessary to expel them. They wanted us off their lands, but we kept troops stationed in the middle east EVEN AFTER THE FATWA WAS ISSUED!!5 years later, guess what happened. We got attacked. And Osama has repeatedly offered truce's AFTER THE ATTACK!!! We have rejected them. Yes Michael, Osama tried ignoring us, he was betrayed by his own people and tried pleading with them to get us out, he wrote letter after letter and begged and spoke out against us before he ever attacked us. HE WAITED 5 YEARS after his declaration of war before he tried he tried to attack us. I listed the facts, I put in two hours of work to provide you with them, go to Wikipedia, find the footnotes, and read them. Your country initiated the violence. Your country didn't listen to the pleas. Your country gave the weapons to kill his women and children. Now... I have answered your questions, every one of them. Now answer mine. Wasn't Osama serving the purpose government was supposed to serve? And if not what proof do you have to the contrary?
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Post by albpilot on Mar 17, 2010 13:43:54 GMT -5
Um, SD...you know that Wikipedia is open source and can be edited by anyone without any sort of fact checking or authorization, don't you? Might not want to cite that as a definitive source for purposes of this discussion.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 17, 2010 14:04:24 GMT -5
Um, SD...you know that Wikipedia is open source and can be edited by anyone without any sort of fact checking or authorization, don't you? Might not want to cite that as a definitive source for purposes of this discussion. I asked for an unbiased source but I didn't mean Wiki.
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Mar 17, 2010 14:28:02 GMT -5
Um, SD...you know that Wikipedia is open source and can be edited by anyone without any sort of fact checking or authorization, don't you? Might not want to cite that as a definitive source for purposes of this discussion. I asked for an unbiased source but I didn't mean Wiki. Did you honestly even bother to read my post? Are you picking and choosing where I can and can't get facts now in order to get out of your predicament? If you disagree or believe they are biased then disprove them with factual evidence. You can go read the articles that I specifically mentioned and click on the footnotes listed beside the statements , they link to the websites containing the factual evidence. I researched every fact and I'm not going to sit here and put 45 references up to various websites.
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noski
Captain
"Richthofen lived where the rest of us go , only in our greatest moments." Udet
Posts: 286
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Post by noski on Mar 17, 2010 15:06:23 GMT -5
SD, Osama is/was a citizen of Saudi Arabia, not Lebonon .I don't think the government of Lebanon made him their spoksman or any other official position.'LITERAL brother' is a weak excuse for the Ossama/Lebanon link you make. He held no postion to order US bases be removed from Saudi just as you have no position to call your senator to demand US bases be removed from Japan and expect a real consideration of your request. He is a hypocrite. He attacked our financial district even though he himself is wealthy, being a Bin-Laden. He did nothing more than the hypocrites that run the US . He got his subjects to kill themselves for his cause. The people of the US have allowed the government to send their children to suffer and die for the sole benefit of the wealthy.(much like FT. Sumpter 1861 and Southern the cotton barons) I don't understand how you give him any credit to 'negogiate' anything with US or any other government. Ossama is a thug. I liken your stance to saying "I 'm upset with Russia because the the Mafia Don in Chicago called Putin to negotiate a this or that and Putin refused to take his phone call." Ossama does not have 'troops'. They are misguided thugs. Fatwa is has no legal meaning outside Islam anymore than than a decree by the Pope banning the eating of meat on fridays during Lent in China. Michael, I think you need to look at the history of the US and the Middle East a little more. In the 1950s, the US put the Shah Ra-somebody or other (Can't remember right now) into power in Iran because he supported US policy in the region. The CIA taught Iran's secret ploice how to 'interogate' prisoners. The Shah terrrorized his citizens for decades while the US backed him. When he died , the religious leaders led a revolt and took over Iran. The people of Iran knew who to blame for their suffering and attacked the US embassy. And the people of the US were genuinely suprised by the Iranian reaction. In the middle 1980s Saddam Hussein attacked Iran. Seeing a chance to retaliate against Iran , the US gave its support to Saddam and Iraq, including the bio-weapons he used against the Iraqi people.Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam a pair of goldlen spurs as a gift from the grateful citizens of the US. When Saddam didn't want to play ball with the US anymore the US demonized him as a 'bad man' even though he wasn't any worse than The US' friend , the Shah. I honestly don't know the reasons the Arab states hate Isreal . Perhaps someone else here knows. The US gives Israel $3 billion each year as well , so we are the enemy by association. The US has supported Israel since its existence in 1948 by selling it tanks , weapons and technology. Every Arab nation on Israel's border has attacked it and it defended itself with US made goods. (just like Iran provides IED materials for the Iraqis and Afgahnis now) SD, Ossama is a hypocrite who twists a holy book to justify his evil, just as US slave owners in the South used the bible to justify their's.
Michael, The US government's hands are not clean. We are the cause of much misery in the Middle East going on for decades. And no one in the US has been held accountable for the misery heaped upon them. Ever. Enter Bin-laden.
AL-Queda needs to know the US will be pushed to a grim resolve if another 911-like attack takes place and the nations harboring Al-Queda will suffer the same fate.
The US needs to offer a sincere olive branch tothe Middle East and atone for their transgressions.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Mar 17, 2010 15:14:01 GMT -5
Michael, The US government's hands are not clean. I never said they were.
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Post by Stephen on Mar 17, 2010 15:40:33 GMT -5
Did bin laden try to diplomatically negotiate with the United States before 9/11? I do not know. On Sept 10, 2001 - the day before the attacks - Bin Laden was admitted to the Rawalpindi Pakistani military hospital for kidney dialysis, where he met with a CIA station chief. However, you may prefer to win your point by referring to this meeting as something other than "diplomatic negotiation." Also, how do you know this meeting even occurred? You have done no research whatsoever, you merely demand that I do it for you. And what about their bias? The sources are French intelligence, author Richard Labeviere, and the French newspaper Le Figaro. Of course, since we cannot prove that they are all not liars (you can't prove a negative), you still win your point. And obviously, Muslims of all sorts have been begging - in vain - for US forces to leave their land for decades. However, did Bin Laden, specifically, personally, make such an appeal directly to the US? Your original suggestion was that the enemy attempt diplomatic negotiations with the USA, whom they would find "reasonable" to deal with. Once evidence was provided showing that our enemies did precisely that, you narrowed your question to only Bin Laden, and only on the dates in question. This, of course, makes it quite easy for you to win your point. However, by this time your question is sufficiently narrow as to eliminate it from any real use in the overall question of who initiated force against whom. There are no unbiased sources. What you really mean is, "Do you have any sources that reflect my views overall, yet disagree with me on this point?" No, of course I do not.
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noski
Captain
"Richthofen lived where the rest of us go , only in our greatest moments." Udet
Posts: 286
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Post by noski on Mar 18, 2010 10:36:22 GMT -5
Michael, Does it bother you at all that the US' hands are dirty?
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