KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 22, 2010 22:40:24 GMT -5
Michael, I do not believe that you are genuinely seeking truth. I believe this to be extremely incorrect. Disagreeing with someone else doesn't mean the person isn't seeking truth. I encourage you to be careful with those kinds of statements brother. They detract from the points you're trying to make. |
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 22, 2010 22:48:47 GMT -5
Stephen, you said in an earlier reply to Dan: "I don't believe Jesus was ever recorded as saying he supported capital punishment. There is certainly no support to be found for it in the New Testament anywhere. However, the Bible does record that in ancient Israel (long before the existence of the Israeli government, which was established against God's wishes), capital punishment was practiced for a variety of sins - not crimes against the life or property of others, but sins. "
WOW! The Bible is full of God's support of capital punishment in both the Old and the New Testament.
I am going to make a proclamation:
Failure to understand God's criminal justice system and how it is lined out in Scripture is one of the root causes of the difference in opinion in this debate and on the purpose of government. I am feeling horribly and I have a lot of schoolwork to do, so I need to back out of the discussion until later in the week. But I will come back with a mountain of evidence to completely disprove that entire notion that God did not support the death penalty or establish government in part to enact punishment on the wicked.
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Feb 23, 2010 10:14:45 GMT -5
No. He is an insane madman and a liar. We should not accept one word of his statement as true or believable. Hi Kevin, Hey. Please note, I used a direct comment against you (see the "it's like debating with Kevin." comment in my previous post.) So please, after all these years of our debates, feel more than free to throw a few stereotypes at me. I'd hope we're friendly enough after all our TOL debates to smack each other around a bit.  ;D   Now to the question at hand. You remember when CNN and every other news channel was carrying this video of Osama sitting in a cave with his gun? If I'm not mistaken then the link I posted was a direct translation of some of what he was saying. Now, again, I'll tell you as I told Michael. I'm not forcing you to believe or accept it. But I do want valid evidence against the statement being false. All you guys gave me were one and two sentence answers based on assumptions you made from what you last heard on FOX news. Kevin, I am not trying to get Michael to convert to a V for Vendetta character, but I'll tell you what I use to tell all the Satanists and pagans on TOL If I can get you to OPEN YOUR MIND. And at least consider what I have said as possible truth. Then my mission is accomplished. GOD WILL DO THE REST. I will happily extend you the same courtesy if either you or Michael provide me with evidence against Osama's statement, proving it false. Looking forward to hearing a response from either of you that involves more than 3 sentences. ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2010 10:57:39 GMT -5
Don't you dare ask me to question my faith again. You should question your faith every day. You should question God's existence, the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth and the resurrection continually. Every day you fail to do so is another day of living in defiance of God's word. Do not be so afraid to hold your beliefs up in the light of truth. They will stand the test. You will soon begin believing, not because you are a blind follower, but because of genuine conviction and evidence. Your faith will be strengthened because of it, and that is why we are told to seek truth. We are to continually seek truth at all costs, to seek understanding, to seek wisdom and to re-examine and reconsider everything. Failure to do so is rebellion against scriptural commands. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2010 11:00:29 GMT -5
I believe this to be extremely incorrect. Disagreeing with someone else doesn't mean the person isn't seeking truth. "I already have the truth... I don't need to re-examine it." - Michael I'll let you debate that with Michael. Good luck. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2010 11:11:26 GMT -5
I will come back with a mountain of evidence to completely disprove that entire notion that God did not support the death penalty or establish government in part to enact punishment on the wicked. You're wasting your time addressing arguments I never made. I said that the OT did observe instances of death penalty use, and that Jesus never spoke in favor of the death penalty. If either of those are untrue - okay, fine - you have something to debate. But I believe you agree with both statements. If you wish to expand the discussion beyond my statements, by all means do so, but please do not attempt to relate your monologue to anything I said. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2010 11:19:32 GMT -5
I have to agree with Michael that people who strap bombs to their bodies, use innocent civilians as shields, and fly airplanes into buildings are nut-jobs. As far as this old repeated cliche' about us killing innocent civilians in Iraq and how can that be ok if it's not ok for the terrorists to kill our innocent civilians (or similar such drivel): The innocent civilians who die during US-led strikes were never a prime target. We are NOT going in with the mindset of destroying innocent civilians. We strike military targets. Sometimes, tragically, innocent civilians die in the process. Our military as a whole does everything to try to avoid the casualties. Anyone who says they do not is either A. lying or B. repeating a lie they heard. The strike on US soil on 9-11 was much different. The targets were not military they were civilian. I do think the economy was probably part of the mindset of the terrorists, but that doesn't change the fact that it was NOT a military target where innocent civlians died inadvertently as a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being there by choice. I challenge you to construct a definition of the propaganda term "terrorist" that does not include the US armed forces. If all of your claims above are true, it should be quite easy. |
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Post by Stephen on Feb 23, 2010 11:20:11 GMT -5
He is an insane madman and a liar. We should not accept one word of his statement as true or believable. Have you ever met him? |
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 23, 2010 16:55:36 GMT -5
He is an insane madman and a liar. We should not accept one word of his statement as true or believable. Have you ever met him? Nope. And I have never met a lot of people from either the present or the past, such as Hitler, Stalin, or even the Apostle Paul. Question: Can't one's behavior and actions that they have taken clearly identify said person's character so that one doesn't necessarily have to meet them to say they were either good or evil? |
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 23, 2010 16:58:23 GMT -5
I have to agree with Michael that people who strap bombs to their bodies, use innocent civilians as shields, and fly airplanes into buildings are nut-jobs. As far as this old repeated cliche' about us killing innocent civilians in Iraq and how can that be ok if it's not ok for the terrorists to kill our innocent civilians (or similar such drivel): The innocent civilians who die during US-led strikes were never a prime target. We are NOT going in with the mindset of destroying innocent civilians. We strike military targets. Sometimes, tragically, innocent civilians die in the process. Our military as a whole does everything to try to avoid the casualties. Anyone who says they do not is either A. lying or B. repeating a lie they heard. The strike on US soil on 9-11 was much different. The targets were not military they were civilian. I do think the economy was probably part of the mindset of the terrorists, but that doesn't change the fact that it was NOT a military target where innocent civlians died inadvertently as a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being there by choice. I challenge you to construct a definition of the propaganda term "terrorist" that does not include the US armed forces. If all of your claims above are true, it should be quite easy. All you are doing is setting up strawman arguments that can be defended if your particular worldview is not used to define terms. That is why you answered my statement by harkening back to a demand to meet your definition. It will wind up being circular and the underlying worldview (i.e. the purpose of government and why God created it) is the real problem. |
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KevinR
Group Commander
2003, 2009 Indy Squadron Champion
Posts: 753
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Post by KevinR on Feb 23, 2010 16:59:09 GMT -5
I have to get to class and I'm too busy right now to get much more in depth, but I look forward to finally putting some of this to rest. God bless you Stephen.
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2010 19:27:27 GMT -5
Don't you dare ask me to question my faith again. You should question your faith every day. You should question God's existence, the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth and the resurrection continually. Every day you fail to do so is another day of living in defiance of God's word. Do not be so afraid to hold your beliefs up in the light of truth. They will stand the test. You will soon begin believing, not because you are a blind follower, but because of genuine conviction and evidence. Your faith will be strengthened because of it, and that is why we are told to seek truth. We are to continually seek truth at all costs, to seek understanding, to seek wisdom and to re-examine and reconsider everything. Failure to do so is rebellion against scriptural commands. I will ask again, what is truth? If truth is the only answer than what about Hitler's truth, or Vlad the Impaler's truth, or Stalin's truth? They all thought they had the "truth"? Why is your "truth" any better than there's? We all are sinners, if we are left to determine truth it will become a perversion to the Lord. Truth will become what fallible men make it. Every choice we make is dictated by our perspective, our beliefs, our truth. Whether it be a truth we have made up, or one we have spent all our lives with. John 14:6 :Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." CHRIST IS TRUTH.You vault truth over Christ, why? You question God, and open your self to attacks by the devil, every moment you spend outside of God's protection is a moment you allow satin to plant doubt in your heart, why? I WILL NOT BEHOLD CHRIST AND MY FAITH TO YOUR "truth"! |
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2010 19:29:19 GMT -5
If I can get you to OPEN YOUR MIND. And at least consider what I have said as possible truth. Then my mission is accomplished. GOD WILL DO THE REST. So you now agree with us that questioning the Lord, and your faith, is foolhardy and ignorant? And you openly disagree with Stephen? |
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Michael
Captain
Red Baron Fight XX and XXI Champion
Posts: 407
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2010 20:00:41 GMT -5
I have to agree with Michael that people who strap bombs to their bodies, use innocent civilians as shields, and fly airplanes into buildings are nut-jobs. As far as this old repeated cliche' about us killing innocent civilians in Iraq and how can that be ok if it's not ok for the terrorists to kill our innocent civilians (or similar such drivel): The innocent civilians who die during US-led strikes were never a prime target. We are NOT going in with the mindset of destroying innocent civilians. We strike military targets. Sometimes, tragically, innocent civilians die in the process. Our military as a whole does everything to try to avoid the casualties. Anyone who says they do not is either A. lying or B. repeating a lie they heard. The strike on US soil on 9-11 was much different. The targets were not military they were civilian. I do think the economy was probably part of the mindset of the terrorists, but that doesn't change the fact that it was NOT a military target where innocent civlians died inadvertently as a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time or being there by choice. I challenge you to construct a definition of the propaganda term "terrorist" that does not include the US armed forces. If all of your claims above are true, it should be quite easy.
–noun
1.a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2.a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3.(formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
4.an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.
Word Origin & History
terrorist
in the modern sense, 1947, especially in reference to Jewish tactics against the British in Palestine -- earlier it was used of extremist revolutionaries in Russia (1866); and Jacobins during the French Revolution (1795) -- from Fr. terroriste; see terror + -ist (also cf. terrorism). The tendency of one party's terrorist to be another's guerilla or freedom fighter was noted in ref. to the British action in Cyprus (1956) and the war in Rhodesia (1973). The word terrorist has been applied, at least retroactively, to the Maquis resistance in occupied France in World War II (e.g. in the "Spectator," Oct. 20, 1979).Wow, would ya look at that, not a sole mention of osama bin laden or the taliban or 9/11. And just in case you think I would edit this, here's the link: dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorist |
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phoenix
Second Lieutenant
This has all just gotten so bizarre and pointless...
Posts: 80
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Post by phoenix on Feb 23, 2010 20:03:57 GMT -5
So you now agree with us that questioning the Lord, and your faith, is foolhardy and ignorant? And you openly disagree with Stephen? No. I am trusting God to convict the person of the truth once their mind has been introduced to it. Which is exactly what Stephen has advocated this entire thread and exactly what you are scared to death of doing. Now answer the question I posted about Osama Bin Laden. And do it with facts, not blazing generalities based upon your interpretation of truth. |
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;D 
