Wesley's Head On Attacks

[Michael]

Nov 17, 2009 11:56:32 GMT -5 albpilot said:

Nov 17, 2009 11:14:24 GMT -5 Michael said:

Wes named his ADFT pilot Westley "Maverick" Xavier.
Although the first name does beg attachment.

Dunno, three names from 3 different movie genres...at least he's not limiting himself.

Lol!

[KevinR]

Nov 17, 2009 11:36:20 GMT -5 Flydude said:

Here are my reasons for HOing people:
1. My pilots have very few kills and I've been playing for over a year now and my pilot with the most kills is like 3.

2. I know most of you guys won't return fire, so we avoid a collision, like Mr. Richseon. So in my eyes its just alot of damage output to my enemies.

3. I don't plan on doing this every gaming night, but I just don't want people to be surprised when I HO them.

4. If you think about it all aces will eventualy die, I'm just speeding up the clock.

5. and last but not least I think that HOing brings a fun element to the table and I think that people are so focused on winning games and getting kills that they lose the fun aspect of the game.

Not all aces eventually die. It's in the realm of possibility to take a guy all the way to the max experience and retire them. I'd sure like to get a guy there, and yes its true a pilot can die at any time, but trust me when you've been playing over 10 years with a pilot you don't want to just lose him over something dumb and unnecessary. Such as head-on attacks from rookies who mean absolutely nothing to the player making the attack.

Wesley to your first point, I remember being a new player and being frustrated that I didn't have a lot of kills. But a pilot gets the same advantages for SURVIVING 12 missions as he does for getting 5 kills. Not to mention if you survive that many missions you greatly increase your chances of getting kills with that pilot, and legitimate kills earned the right way. Chivalry rules in the game might seem dumb, but they truly help re-enact the chivalry of WW1 pilots. Sure they wanted to shoot each other down, but they also had a certain amount of dignity and respect for their opponents. Especially if that opponent was a highly decorated ace.

I'm glad you aren't thinking about doing this every time you play, but I still encourage you not to do it unless its dire circumstances or something you just can't avoid. At least not on a regular basis. It will make your DP experience a lot more fun in the long term. Trust us!

[Flydude]

So you had a pilot that went around makin crazy/stupid moves and HOing people, but when I do it it's "Unchivalrus" and "Atrocity". Oh yah, my pilot I used in the ADF will, I repeat, will shoot HO every chance he gets. And getting 5 kills can be alot faster then getting 12 missions. 12 missions could take me like another year. 5 kills, who knows, I get 5 kills after the next DP game night. I'm not living to play, I'm living to live.

[KevinR]

Nov 17, 2009 17:04:20 GMT -5 Flydude said:

So you had a pilot that went around makin crazy/stupid moves and HOing people, but when I do it it's "Unchivalrus" and "Atrocity". Oh yah, my pilot I used in the ADF will, I repeat, will shoot HO every chance he gets. And getting 5 kills can be alot faster then getting 12 missions. 12 missions could take me like another year. 5 kills, who knows, I get 5 kills after the next DP game night. I'm not living to play, I'm living to live.

But you misunderstood I had one pilot like that in over 10 years of Dawn Patrol gaming. And I had a good story line as to why he was that way. I've flown some thousands of missions since then and rarely ever used head on attacks during that time.

[KevinR]

I was just giving you an option like having a specific pilot who employs that strategy but not making it the norm. But I wouldn't even have a pilot like that now. Listen it seems Michael was right we're not going to convince you, but we've given it a great shot.

[Stephen]

Okay then. We'll do this the hard way.

[Michael]

Nov 17, 2009 16:24:49 GMT -5 KevinR said:

Chivalry rules in the game might seem dumb, but they truly help re-enact the chivalry of WW1 pilots. Sure they wanted to shoot each other down, but they also had a certain amount of dignity and respect for their opponents. Especially if that opponent was a highly decorated ace.

Most pilots.

[Michael]

Nov 17, 2009 23:47:19 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Okay then. We'll do this the hard way.

Wes said that he only gonna go banzai with his "Maverick" Xavier.
So you won't have to "Do this the hard way".

[Flydude]

This is really starting to tick me off. I said that I would have 1 pilot that would go all kookookacuu, not all my pilots. There is a big difference between 1 and all. So I do it once and I'm already the enemy. You guys take this game WAY to seriuously. It's a game. Why can't you guys let me have a little fun? If you'd guys rather me play the game like it's my life and never take crazy shots and never joke around about anything, then I will just have to declair me inntent to escape Dawn Patrol That seems like what you guys want anyway (Except Mr. Kevin) Games are sposed to be fun. I wasn't having fun, so I tried something new. I'm so sorry that I made a life changing mistake when I HOd you pilot(Which I didn't kill anyway)
So do you still want to do this hard way?

[Flydude]

If you guys can name me 1 person who had the some attitude as me and left , then I might reconsider.

[Stephen]

Nov 18, 2009 15:08:07 GMT -5 Flydude said:

This is really starting to tick me off.

Ah... now we have your attention.

I will just have to declair me inntent to escape Dawn Patrol

That's certainly where you were headed, but thankfully it looks as if we've avoided that.

You guys take this game WAY to seriuously.

Yet you're the one who claims to be "ticked off." Relax. Take your own advice. It was actually quite good.

I'm so sorry that I made a life changing mistake when I HOd you pilot

It was Wyatt that you head-onned (I just made that word up - you can use it some time if you like). Or was that Michael? Can't remember. I was flying a rookie and losing badly so it didn't matter either way.

So do you still want to do this hard way?

Never did. What you do is up to you... we can only react.

[Stephen]

Nov 18, 2009 14:37:22 GMT -5 Michael said:

Nov 17, 2009 16:24:49 GMT -5 KevinR said:

Chivalry rules in the game might seem dumb, but they truly help re-enact the chivalry of WW1 pilots. Sure they wanted to shoot each other down, but they also had a certain amount of dignity and respect for their opponents. Especially if that opponent was a highly decorated ace.

Most pilots.

Actually, by mid-1917 there was very little chivalry left at all on either side. It was pretty much an assassination attempt to ambush and murder the other guy. Pretty ugly, really. They would shoot at helpless planes, at pilots already on the ground, a whole flight would gang up on one helpless plane... it was pretty nasty. There were occasions of honor and chivalry, even late in the war, and it is on these noble ideas that the DP rules are built... that, and some good common sense.

Ditching the whole idea of honor in DP has two very undesirable results.

First, it makes for a lousy game. That's why we have attack limitations of two aircraft on one target. Otherwise, one side could just swarm one enemy with every plane, take him out on the first turn, and then enjoy a numerical advantage for the rest of the game. Yee haw. Some fun that would be.

Secondly, the head-on attacks are too deadly - far more so than they were in WWI. Head-onning (another of my word inventions) was very common in the war. That's how many dogfights started. But in DP it is WAY too deadly and can be used as a pretty low tactic... just throw your rookie up against the enemy's aces and presto. Problem solved.

So the only way to have a really enjoyable game is to have attack limitations and use some good sense and respect for others when to using head on attacks. And in the end, that's really what this is about... respect for your fellow players.

And yes, we've tried again and again to get Mike Carr to alter the head on charts so they're not so deadly. Believe me, we've tried. But he won't, so we're stuck with the overly-outrageously-super deadly head on attack as it now stands, which leads us back to where we started.

[Michael]

Nov 18, 2009 16:03:18 GMT -5 Stephen said:

Nov 18, 2009 14:37:22 GMT -5 Michael said:

Most pilots.

Actually, by mid-1917 there was very little chivalry left at all on either side. It was pretty much an assassination attempt to ambush and murder the other guy. Pretty ugly, really. They would shoot at helpless planes, at pilots already on the ground, a whole flight would gang up on one helpless plane... it was pretty nasty. There were occasions of honor and chivalry, even late in the war, and it is on these noble ideas that the DP rules are built... that, and some good common sense.

Ditching the whole idea of honor in DP has two very undesirable results.

First, it makes for a lousy game. That's why we have attack limitations of two aircraft on one target. Otherwise, one side could just swarm one enemy with every plane, take him out on the first turn, and then enjoy a numerical advantage for the rest of the game. Yee haw. Some fun that would be.

Secondly, the head-on attacks are too deadly - far more so than they were in WWI. Head-onning (another of my word inventions) was very common in the war. That's how many dogfights started. But in DP it is WAY too deadly and can be used as a pretty low tactic... just throw your rookie up against the enemy's aces and presto. Problem solved.

So the only way to have a really enjoyable game is to have attack limitations and use some good sense and respect for others when to using head on attacks. And in the end, that's really what this is about... respect for your fellow players.

And yes, we've tried again and again to get Mike Carr to alter the head on charts so they're not so deadly. Believe me, we've tried. But he won't, so we're stuck with the overly-outrageously-super deadly head on attack as it now stands, which leads us back to where we started.

We can always Indy squadron-ify the HO tables.

[albpilot]

Nov 18, 2009 15:08:07 GMT -5 Flydude said:

This is really starting to tick me off. I said that I would have 1 pilot that would go all kookookacuu, not all my pilots. There is a big difference between 1 and all. So I do it once and I'm already the enemy. You guys take this game WAY to seriuously. It's a game. Why can't you guys let me have a little fun? If you'd guys rather me play the game like it's my life and never take crazy shots and never joke around about anything, then I will just have to declair me inntent to escape Dawn Patrol That seems like what you guys want anyway (Except Mr. Kevin) Games are sposed to be fun. I wasn't having fun, so I tried something new. I'm so sorry that I made a life changing mistake when I HOd you pilot(Which I didn't kill anyway)
So do you still want to do this hard way?

The problem lies in that anyone on the opposing side has no way of knowing which pilot you have in the air (although one could make some educated guesses based on plane type) and so in order to protect their own roster will have to assume that said pilot is ALWAYS in the air. See how that works?

[Stephen]

Nov 18, 2009 17:13:03 GMT -5 Michael said:

We can always Indy squadron-ify the HO tables.

Hey, you make up your own words, too? Aha! A brother!

We've actually discussed that several times and even gone so far as flying some experimental games using charts made by Scott Campbell some years ago. He was a big proponent of that.

I'm not really opposed to it, but I am concerned about using charts that are so different that they depart from society rules and put a big wall between us. Maybe that wouldn't be the case - dunno. Another concern - why re-write the rule book around one person and one situation?

But the thought does have some merit and its been bounced around several times. I know of at least two people who've put together such charts.