joseki
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Come to the dark side!
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Post by joseki on Aug 27, 2009 1:14:18 GMT -5
Hey guys, I'll chime in here.
Stephen is right you do need three things. One commited player to run the group, a venue to hold your games, and a method for dissemination of information.
The biggest draw we received came from our now defunct website. And because we have a steady venue at Gamers Inn we have increased participation. Saturdays for us have become two table events. Not on a regular basis but at least once a month or so.
When I heard that the Indy squadron moved its venue from that delightful game store to a personal residence I pretty much thought that sounded a death nell for your squadron. Scott keeps track (why I don't know) of how many people we have had play. This calender year we have had over 100 different people sit down to play. Some because we were the only game in the store at the time.
We constructed a dedicated table top for DP and leave it at the store. We have had people play just to try out the board.
I would suggest your squadron return to the gamestore and play a set weekend every month. That way everyone knows when and where it is.
Your squadron is a kickbutt group I still tell stories about the day I was there.
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joseki
Captain
Come to the dark side!
Posts: 274
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Post by joseki on Aug 27, 2009 2:43:13 GMT -5
Whoops I forgot to mention our farthest traveling member. He lives in Paris and commutes to Phoenix. Andrew you should see him on Vassal. Nice guy named Dom but he only wants to fly French planes. We're working on that.
Stay loud and proud guys. "If you fly it they will come."
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Post by Stephen on Aug 27, 2009 19:57:53 GMT -5
So, what can we do to change things, or is it an inevitable result of life moving us on? Its the inevitable result of life... but IMHO, the key here is survival. The difference between the successful squadrons and the unsuccessful is that we survive through hard times. Just keep plugging. If we don't game as much, just try to game at all. If things are quiet here, just make sure that every few months a new issue is out... even if its short. Then, as life allows, things seem to turn around. As Woody Allen said, 90% of success is just showing up. I think patience and survival at all costs are the key. The rest will follow. |
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Post by Stephen on Aug 27, 2009 20:16:29 GMT -5
mini-cons have been held in AZ, MN, PA, Canada & Australia in the past year!! The AZ group is by far the most active and plays multiple times a WEEK, the MN group has a weekly game, and with the success of last years MN mini-con, a second has been planned for this fall to celebrate our 32nd straight year of playing. There is a FL group that has been very active playing with miniatures and post reports on the DP website, and email games have drawn players in from across the country. My apologies and congratulations to the 3 groups mentioned who still play. But let's remember that we're not talking about mini-cons or the society, we're talking about local squadrons. And the point remains - precious few have survived. And that point still leads us to the conclusion that survival at any level equates to success. And that was the issue at hand. I guess the news hasn't reached MN yet...  |
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Post by Stephen on Aug 27, 2009 20:19:05 GMT -5
Think about how many players turned out for RBF, that was a pretty good turnout and it was our last official event. I think the next few months should see us return to steady playing numbers. Sept-December will pick up considerably. Always does. |
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Post by Stephen on Aug 27, 2009 20:23:08 GMT -5
When I heard that the Indy squadron moved its venue from that delightful game store to a personal residence I pretty much thought that sounded a death nell for your squadron. Time will tell, but I believe that the lull we're in right now is a combination of things. First and foremost is my inability to put much time into it right now. Second is summer - always a down time for us. Its not even a surprise. And the lack of gaming days (see Reason Number 1) completes the combination that besets us right now. I believe the move to private homes has been a good one for many reasons. I could be wrong, but I think there are clear indications that the lull we're in right now is attributable to other things. We'll see. |
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albpilot
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Posts: 1,181
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Post by albpilot on Aug 27, 2009 21:11:50 GMT -5
When I heard that the Indy squadron moved its venue from that delightful game store to a personal residence I pretty much thought that sounded a death nell for your squadron. Time will tell, but I believe that the lull we're in right now is a combination of things. First and foremost is my inability to put much time into it right now. Second is summer - always a down time for us. Its not even a surprise. And the lack of gaming days (see Reason Number 1) completes the combination that besets us right now. I believe the move to private homes has been a good one for many reasons. I could be wrong, but I think there are clear indications that the lull we're in right now is attributable to other things. We'll see. Well, I'm not sold on that. As an example, when you work for a company as I do, getting up and going somewhere to do your work is a powerful psychological thing, it helps provide purpose. I think the same is true for gaming. If we are deliberate about getting together, I think we're more likely to have games. And unfortunately, I think that having a venue like the gaming store is better than a private home-overall. Sure, a home has things that the store can't offer, but the store has something the home can't, i.e., a supply of potential new players. Just my $.02. |
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joseki
Captain
Come to the dark side!
Posts: 274
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Post by joseki on Aug 27, 2009 21:22:50 GMT -5
Sure, a home has things that the store can't offer, but the store has something the home can't, i.e., a supply of potential new players. Just my $.02. There is my point exactly. All the years I flew with Frank Luke our group never really grew outside an immediate circle of friends. In the last 8 months more people have sat at our table than have in the last 8 years. I firmly believe that a good gamestore is the way to go. To be fair I learned this trick in the SCA, get out get seen and pick those who find they have an interest! |
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Post by kirkh on Aug 28, 2009 13:36:34 GMT -5
I know I'm an interloper here, but I've been "frothing at the bit" for years to be able to play Dawn Patrol. I just don't have the available resources (or the time) to try and find three other local players to conduct regular games. I'm guessing there are probably lots of folks out there that are in the same boat. We have the game on our shelves and are dying to play it, but don't have three compatrioits that are just as excited living near us. Somehow Dawn Patrol needs to drag itself into the 21st century and develop some sort of web presence if it wants to survive. As for Mike Carr saying an 8th edition probably won't be published - heck, I never thought it would be. It's a 30+ year old game that wouldn't be able to compete with the more modern games that are currently sitting on game shelves. To me DP was in its heyday about ten years ago when those webgames were taking place. There was participation from all over the globe and anyone who wanted to play was welcome. I tried to drag DP into modern times by having an acquaintance develop the VASSAL module, and we even had a group playing semi-regularly for a while, but the Dawn Patrol community as a whole never sanctioned VDP and so it died a lonely death. I even started moderating e-mail games using VASSAL in an effort to try and rekindle the spirit of the old webgames, but after moderating a half dozen or so of them that died as well. I can confidently say I did as much as I possibly could to try and get the DP community to stand up and embrace e-play, but it just didn't happen. The fact I still visit this message board on occasion means I still haven't lost all hope of ever playing. Every time I check in I hope to find some evidence that there's now a way for me to enjoy DP. Sorry for the rant, but when I come here and see everyone scratching their collective heads over why the game appears to be dying, I ask myself "Can't anyone see the large elephant in the room?" Leap into the 21st century, put up some sort of web presence other than a couple message boards, send out e-mails to everyone and anyone that can even spell Dawn Patrol, start up the webgames again, and build a DP world community that consists of more than a few folks in the Indianapolis area.
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Post by Stephen on Aug 28, 2009 18:06:09 GMT -5
I don't disagree, but its not Indy's job to carry the banner for all of DP. We did our best to help VDP, but ultimately MC and the DP web site must decide whether DP is to go virtual or not. MC still sees this as strictly a board game, face to face. Although I'm sure he'd support VDP, I don't think he sees it as the future of the game (same with miniatures, BTW). He wants the game to spread by individuals building groups in their area. Remember, every DP group started with one individual who recruited others. Unless you're in one of maybe four select cities, no one has a "just add water" group ready to roll. It has to be built one person at a time and its tough, but it can be done.
I think VDP has a place in the DP universe and I certainly support it, but Indy alone can't put it on the map. It should be a society project in order to see long term success.
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Post by kirkh on Aug 29, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -5
"A society project". Therein lies another one of my issues with the DP community. I never joined FITS because I've never found a way to play the game regularly. If I had been able to, I'd have joined in a heartbeat. If I can't play, what's the point in joining? If the DP community truly wants to survive, it needs to embrace the internet and use it to generate and track players. Like most people in this world I don't have the time to go try to find other players. If that's what it takes then I'll just forget about DP and drag out another game I can play with less effort - and that's exactly what I've done. The last two years I've gotten into the Panzer Grenadier series of games by Avalanche Press. The games are fun, colorful, historically accurate (as much as any board game can be), are great solitaire, and can be played by only two people. I have a local friend who I play with regularly and I wouldn't mind playing DP with him, but the four player requirement is extremely limiting. DP seems to constantly shoot itself in the foot when it comes to trying to generate/retain players. No central web location for news/events/players, must have four players, internet/web play is frowned upon, anyone interested must join FITS to get anything more out of the game. If any of those issues could be remedied, maybe the game would start to grow again.
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joseki
Captain
Come to the dark side!
Posts: 274
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Post by joseki on Aug 29, 2009 11:07:39 GMT -5
"A society project". No central web location for news/events/players, must have four players, internet/web play is frowned upon, anyone interested must join FITS to get anything more out of the game. If any of those issues could be remedied, maybe the game would start to grow again. Central location; WWW.DawnPatrol.org (Thanks Dan,Andrew) Four Players; Only neccesary if you plan to build a roster/roleplay. If you just want to play 2 people is enough. Internet play is frowned upon; Well you have me there, I only use a computer to download porn, checking the 3 DP sites is stressful enough. Can't say I frown on it just don't want to do it. Joining Fits; Thats more support yhan most games give and it runs a mere $12.67 online... Less than many porn sites  |
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Post by kirkh on Aug 29, 2009 12:47:39 GMT -5
The DP.org site is OK, but it's not exactly designed for advancement or promotion of the game.
As for two player games, the role playing aspect of DP is the vast majority of it's selling point. Sure one can play a two person game, but the games are terrible and don't mean anything.
As for internet play, if you're lucky enough to live within driving distance of a regular game, more power to ya. I'm guessing there are lots of people out there who are like me that have no local regular game to go to. I find it amusing that the DP players that have local opponents pooh pooh us who want to play online (it's not a choice, but a necessity for me), but they're the same people who can't understand why the game is dying.
Tell me, why should I pay $12.67 for something I can't use? If the FITS society were to give me away to play the game then maybe it would be a worthy investment. As it is right now, it would be $12.67 thrown down the toilet. I'd rather use that money to buy a Panzer Grenadier scenario book that I can get some use out of.
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joseki
Captain
Come to the dark side!
Posts: 274
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Post by joseki on Aug 30, 2009 22:06:58 GMT -5
The DP.org site is OK, but it's not exactly designed for advancement or promotion of the game. As for two player games, the role playing aspect of DP is the vast majority of it's selling point. Sure one can play a two person game, but the games are terrible and don't mean anything. As for internet play, if you're lucky enough to live within driving distance of a regular game, more power to ya. I'm guessing there are lots of people out there who are like me that have no local regular game to go to. I find it amusing that the DP players that have local opponents pooh pooh us who want to play online (it's not a choice, but a necessity for me), but they're the same people who can't understand why the game is dying. Tell me, why should I pay $12.67 for something I can't use? If the FITS society were to give me away to play the game then maybe it would be a worthy investment. As it is right now, it would be $12.67 thrown down the toilet. I'd rather use that money to buy a Panzer Grenadier scenario book that I can get some use out of. Hmmm... Not sure I have a good reply to how you feel about the website. The site is attracting people but does that mean they are playing more? I really can't answer that as I don't know. I can say that the group I play in picked up 4 or 5 really quality guys from our now defunct website, because it showed where we were playing. But that is not the same as recruiting people online. I used to enjoy two player games and I just hate games with more than 7. But the less players the less complex it is so I can see as where people smarter than I would find it terrible. Don't recall anyone pooh-poohing VDP I thought there was a game going on every thursday. If not it may be that it will take someone sitting online every thursday waiting for people to show. I can state for a fact that in our group that is exactly what happened. Scott sat down at gamers every Sat at noon trying to talk people into playing. It took him 6 months to get a steady foursome. Ok on the VDP subject. If it works for you great. I and this is just me, I spent 2 years driving coast to coast and didn't attend a group. I can say that during that time I had no interest in VDP. Nothing against just not my bag. $12.67 allows you access to book reviews, game updates Convention reports, commentary from the game designer, player reminisces, raffles and once a year an Ace/Experienced list. If you feel thats not worth it save your money |
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Post by kirkh on Aug 31, 2009 6:51:25 GMT -5
As I said, it would only be worth it if I can play the game. As it is right now, I feel like the kid stuck in the rain outside of the toy store with his face pressed up to the window watching everybody else inside playing and having fun. I bought the game and have spent countless hours trying to figure out how to play, all to no avail. I don't have six months of Saturdays to throw away in the hopes of finding three more players. I guess it's just time to forget about this game completely, remove this site from my "favorites" list, and move on to games I can actually play.
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