Fokker Dr1 in Campaign

[tippedtop]

In our gaming group, we dont roll random dats as per MC rules. We have a campaign set up with a liniar date. We are playing in June 1917 just now. I am looking at bringing in the Fokker Dr1. In the game its entry date is Dec 1917. I note that, the aircraft came into service much sooner. 2 were sent to JG1 in Aug 1917 and one Jasa was fully equiped by September. They were then grounded becose of top wing defects and some pilots being killed in crashes. The entire DR1 fleet was then grounded. I am proposing that the Dr1 can be introduced around this earlier (more historical date) of Aug 1917. But due to the problems with them, I would make - say - a 10% chance of a wing ripping off each flight.

What does everyone think of this ?

[kevan]

Assuming that you want the campaign to have a basis in reality, I would say that you're fine as long as you have some sort of historical record to base it on. You seem to have done your research - I have no idea what would be an appropriate chance for wing failure, but I'm sure you could dig up some sort of relevant record with minimal effort. I would probably start by going over to theaerodrome.com or some similar site that people with an interest in Great War aviation history hang around.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that a member of indysquadron won't know the answer, and perhaps supply it shortly - there are just way more people at aerodrome, so an answer is probably more likely.

[AP]

I will check when I get home, but I think in the newer plane charts there is a small percentage chance of getting a Dr. 1 in September. If you do get it though, you do not know what your dive is and a wingmate rolls for you, so if you dive you have an unknown % chance of ripping your wings off. Let me look at my charts when i get home tonight and I will let you know (or someone quicker will!)

[tippedtop]

That would be just great thanks !

[albpilot]

Hey tippedtop....I just want to take the opportunity here to point out something. This idea you posted is in essense the force that has fractured the DP world for a long time. A player (or a group of players) dislikes something and so changes it for their playing group, thus creating a 'house rule' that may or may not be followed by other groups. In this instance, I could say to you that I will not allow you to put any pilot into the air that you developed in the DrI outside of the normal rollup charts because that would have given your pilot an advantage in number of missions possible and thus potentially make him more deadly than my DrI pilot who followed the official rules....see my point?

Having said that, Indy Squadron is certainly guilty of this same thing, and I don't think any other area of the country is immune either. And your idea isn't necessarily a bad one, either. However, I think that things as fundamental as rollup charts need to be approached very carefully before any changes are made, if for no other reason than to keep everyone on a level playing field mission wise.

I know a lot of research went into the rollup charts and you might want to check with someone like MC or Al to find out if your idea bears merit. If so, it might be something that could be included in the next edition (haha, if there ever is one). One example of that is the high compression engines. Scott Campbell did some exhaustive research and wrote up some rules, they were published, and in the next edition they will be added into the rollup charts as I understand it.

Again, interesting idea, not necessarily a bad one, but you may want to explore the ramifications a bit before you make the leap.

[Stephen]

Those are good points and have raised questions such as these before. However, given the long standing history and official approval of set up missions in Dawn Patrol, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Rigging a campaign's aircraft that way is essentially no different than running set up missions where the aircraft are designated in advance.

[tippedtop]

Albpilot - I think your comments are very sound. I cant see any occasion, however, where a Dr1 pilot in my campaign would ever play aginst anyone else.

We do not use the MC roll up tables at all. In my campaign we have a strict timeline. There are various units with an order of battle and we make a role to see which unit provides aircraft and polits for the mission we haverolled up.

So the only reason I have proposed this earlier introduction date ofthe Dr1 is that we have reached June 1917 and I just want to give some thought to the way we introduce new machines into the campaign.

I did not devise this campaign style of play to change an aspect of the game I "didn't like". It was done in order to heighten the roll playing aspect with Squadrons and Jastas.

I noticed that the Dr1 was sent - all be it in small numbers - earlier than the dec 1917 date in the game. I wondered if this could be reflected in my campaign.

Thats all !

Paul

[albpilot]

No prob here, I was merely trying to point out a pilot used in a virtual campaign with different rules could theoretically be used in other (non campaign) virtual games and that might be a problem for some. I know that in the 2 campaigns I've been in so far I've also used those pilots for non campaign games.

Again, a pretty interesting question, I'd be interested to see if historical examples exist and if so whether they should be put into the game.

[AP]

Paul,
Here is the info I promised-
In the most current charts from Mr. Carr, there is a 1% chance of getting a Dr.1 in Oct. 1917, 0% in Nov and it moves up in Dec & on. The Dr.1 did not make it 'into service' until October. The two aircraft that were given to Richtofen & Voss were Fokker F.I models with a slightly different wing build. These were tested in August by both pilots, and made it to the front in September. Richtofen did not like flying his because of the structural issues, Voss was a bit more daring. Mike & Al have carefully researched which aircraft actually saw combat, which is a big difference over just being at the front. The rule on any DrIs flown before December is that a wingman determines the dive on 1d6 and does NOT tell the pilot what it is.
1-1200 2-1250 3-1300 4-1350 5- 1400 6-1450

I will get the twin engine bombing charts & post them shortly!

[tippedtop]

EXCELLENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am very glad of any help over this Dr1 matter. Also the bomber rules would be awsome as well !

Thank goodness DP is partly alive there in the USA ! I think there can only be our group of 6 playing DP here in the UK because I'm sure others would have found this first rate web site and contected me through it !

Oh well !

[AP]

TOP BOT SIDE TAIL H-O
1 F1 F1* F1* LW RW
2 LW RW F2* LW RE
3 LW RW L/RW LE RE
4 LE RE L/RW CW-2** F1*
5 CW-2** F2* L/RE F3* F1*
6 RE LE L/RE F3* CW-2**
7 RW LW F3* T CW-2**
8 RW LW F3* RE LE
9 F3* F3* T RW LE
10 T T T RW LW

Aircraft stats will show which crewman is in F1, F2, or F3 position and which critical hit chart is used for each area. CW-2 is a hit chance on crew member(s) occupying the F2 area.

Sorry I cant get it straight on here. You should be able to cut & paste it to excel & it will straighten out, otherwise i can email it as well if u like....
If you need specific specs on a bomber(s) please let me know!

[tippedtop]

Could you please email me anything you have at all to

[e-mail]

many thanks

Paul

[kazorm]

cubsfan4life said:

Paul,
Here is the info I promised-
In the most current charts from Mr. Carr, there is a 1% chance of getting a Dr.1 in Oct. 1917, 0% in Nov and it moves up in Dec & on. The Dr.1 did not make it 'into service' until October. The two aircraft that were given to Richtofen & Voss were Fokker F.I models with a slightly different wing build. These were tested in August by both pilots, and made it to the front in September. Richtofen did not like flying his because of the structural issues, Voss was a bit more daring. Mike & Al have carefully researched which aircraft actually saw combat, which is a big difference over just being at the front. The rule on any DrIs flown before December is that a wingman determines the dive on 1d6 and does NOT tell the pilot what it is.
1-1200 2-1250 3-1300 4-1350 5- 1400 6-1450

I will get the twin engine bombing charts & post them shortly!

The only difference between the F.1 and the Dr-1 was small skids added to the end of the wings underneath to protect them while turning on the ground!!!

[alien01]

Paul,
Here is the info I promised-
In the most current charts from Mr. Carr, there is a 1% chance of getting a Dr.1 in Oct. 1917, 0% in Nov and it moves up in Dec & on. . . . The rule on any DrIs flown before December is that a wingman determines the dive on 1d6 and does NOT tell the pilot what it is.
1-1200 2-1250 3-1300 4-1350 5- 1400 6-1450

What AP said is correct - it's the latest and greatest.

Regarding when the Dr I was at the front, the best and most readily available info I could find is in Albatros Pub.'s Fokker Dr I Datafile Special. According to this source the number of Dr I's at the front as of Aug 31 was 2, Oct 31 was 17, and Dec 31 was 35. These are from the Frontbestand, a bi-monthly inventory. Fokker factory deliveries, by month were Aug-2, Sep-0, Oct-25, Nov-6, and Dec-49. Note that since Wolfe was killed in F I 102/17 on 9/15/17 and Voss was killed in F I 103/17 on 9/23/17 there were zero triplanes at the front between 9/24 and the first October delivery.

The victims of the fatal accidents which caused the Triplane to be grounded were Lt Heinrich Gontermann (in Dr I 115/17) on 10/29/17 and Lt. Gunther Pastor (in Dr I 121/17) on 10/31/17. None of the sources I looked at gave a definite date when the grounding was lifted. If the grounding is going to show up at all in the random charts it has to rounded up to a whole month.

In short, for your campaign, unless your pilots are Richthofen, Voss, or Wolfe no Triplanes until October 1917. Then lose them again in November. Some info I saw seemed to indicate that the planes already at the front were released for flight in mid-November and new factory deliveries resumed in late November so if you want to reintroduce them in mid to late November that would probably be justified.

One other Triplane detail for you to consider. The best book available on WW I aerial weapons claims that the Dr I only carried 100 rounds of ammo per gun. I don't believe it, and neither does anyone else I've talked to, but if you want to surprise someone with variant stats that's one you can tinker with.

[alien01]

P.S. Regarding whether this type of campaign is "fair" or O.K., My opinion is as long as the campaign is historically based it's fine. With a historically based campaign you can choose your time frame so that any particular plane is available, but as long as you stay historical there'll be other planes that aren't available which will produce an offsetting disadvantage for you. Any advantage you might gain in terms of your Dr I pilot roster you lose in your Fokker D VII roster so it's OK by me.