Turn Speed Cut Below Stall Speed

[AP]

Please vote on a new VDP house rule, it is requested that you only vote if you have played in at least a few VDP games.

This is a rule regarding what should happen if a plane receives a crit that cuts its turn speed below stall speed (i.e. an Albatros at 16,000 ft. gets a -10 wing crit, speed cut to 50mph). Logically the pilot would not know these details until he attempted to turn, so the rule could be that he should fall Out Of Control for one turn, and then if not in a spin he may fly straight or cut to a glide until he can get to an altitude where stall speed is back at turn speed again.

The other line of thought is that this is too harsh for a game, and since it is only a game, you may immediately choose to fly straight or cut to a glide with no turn of OOC.

[albpilot]

cubsfan4life said:

Please vote on a new VDP house rule, it is requested that you only vote if you have played in at least a few VDP games.

This is a rule regarding what should happen if a plane receives a crit that cuts its turn speed below stall speed (i.e. an Albatros at 16,000 ft. gets a -10 wing crit, speed cut to 50mph). Logically the pilot would not know these details until he attempted to turn, so the rule could be that he should fall Out Of Control for one turn, and then if not in a spin he may fly straight or cut to a glide until he can get to an altitude where stall speed is back at turn speed again.

The other line of thought is that this is too harsh for a game, and since it is only a game, you may immediately choose to fly straight or cut to a glide with no turn of OOC.

In the instance where the battle takes place at low early in the war, this is just as good as telling a player 'go ahead and kill your pilot now' since there is a much larger chance of running out of real estate before correcting.

The 7th ed is pretty clear that the penalty is to be enforced in the following turn. I don't see a reason to make this rule change, I don't think it adds that much to the game. Just my $0.02.

[kevan]

I'm going to mull this one over for a bit before I vote. I think it's a valid argument in some situations, but I think there are some critical hits that the pilot would be very aware of, as a result of feedback through the controls, or effects that he would see/hear. Probably the best way to decide would be to read reports of what happened to pilots when those failures happened in real life.

[Stephen]

Turn speed is reduced because of either poor engine performance or improper/partial control surface response. In either case, the pilot would feel a difference in the plane's handling and sense that insufficient speed may cause a stall. The slow roll rate and speed of WWI era planes would IMHO give plenty of response time. The pitch, RPM, temperature of the engine, airspeed indicator (for planes so equipped) in addition to the pilot's own senses would tell him that the plane is flying at a reduced speed. The pilot's reaction would be either to straighten out of the turn or dip the nose to pick up additional speed.

I played many of the early VDP games and hope that's enough to allow me to vote against the OOC suggestion.

[AP]

Albpilot, you do make a very good point. This really does not add to the game in the benefit of pilots surviving. As far as game play goes, it does make the game more challenging and easily more frustrating. I have not had time to read through the rules, but if it is clear that they do not fall OOC, I think the rules win.
I still do not agree with the reality argument though. First of all, until we are up at 10,000ft in a wooden crate none of us can really say, but I agree Stephen that in normal conditions you would probably notice something going wrong with your AC. My problem with that argument is in the heat of battle, they were literally throwing their planes around, guns blazing all around & plenty to distract. By the time you had a chance to notice that something was wrong, it would most times be too late. If you were in the middle of a tight turn & something snaps, it doesn't matter if you know or not, something bad is gonna happen. If you are cruising along and kick the rudder & nothing happens, of course you are not going to put yourself in a spin. This is of course completely subject to the situation, which does not translate well to gameplay...

[nylore]

After much (okay a little) thinking I have to admit, even though it sounded like a great idea, I think the penalty is too harsh considering the sensitivity of these planes.
I agree with Stephen is what I am ultimately trying to say.

Brian

[Stephen]

cubsfan4life said:

in the heat of battle, they were literally throwing their planes around, guns blazing all around & plenty to distract. By the time you had a chance to notice that something was wrong, it would most times be too late.

Very possible. However, we're trying to create one rule for all situations, and the fact remains that the pilot would be aware of a problem unless some overpowering distraction occurred at the precise moment that the plane was about to go out of control. Since the proposal was for a single rule covering all situations, and since the likelihood of a pilot being so totally distracted as to be completely unaware of his plane's condition at any given point is relatively remote, I just can't accept an automatic OOC resolution as being accurate in all situations... or even a significant percentage of them.

[Orion]

I voted no on this one. I would only agree to this rule if were applied to rookie or relatively inexperienced pilots - but even then it is arguable as to whether or not they would notice the change.

[wraithwurm]

I'm not in favor of putting planes out of control so I vote no, it serves no purpose. Pilots die enough as it is in unconsious crashes, shot down, wounds, bad landings and exploding engines. One thing that no one has entertained is the idea is making the crit roll in the next round after that pilots movement phase. If he were to roll the crit after the movement phase he couldn't modify his tactics to compensate for the crit thus simulating the pilot learning what happened to his plane. With the crit showing it's ugly head after the movement phase he finds out what happened to his plane but can't do anything about it (ie I'm going to get underneath that enemy, but can't quite get there ack!). In instances where he has -10 turn, he backs up one square or has a -100 climb and he tried to max climb that turn you adjust accordingly. In that one turn of combat the pilot would try to make the plane perform as normal but plane wouldn't due to the crit, thus teaching the pilot what is wrong with the plane. This tho also tells all the other players that there's a crit, the plane is wounded and could cause that person to be more of a target (like pharanna smelling blood). Let's face it tho, if a plane is -10 turn and they are moving as such people that are watching the game closely realize there is an issue anyhow. Smart pilots could and do use a lame duck decoy (fake a crit) in order to turn like a viper on an unsuspecting enemy and hit them with two spandau's at 100 ft (ouch).

The only exception I would make is for engine crits, due to smoking rules.

That's my rant for the evening. Cheers!