11mm Machine Gun

[tippedtop]

I was just looking through my Ospray book on balloon busters of WW1.

In the section on Willy Coppens it says on page 85 that he was given an 11 machine gun to mount on his Hanriot HD 1 by the French along with some incendiary ammunition.

My question is, just what is this machine gun which was an 11mm weapon ?
Also, has anyone ever looked into incorporating incendiary ammunition into the game for balloon busting mission which might have some advantage ?

Paul

[Stephen]

It was a Vickers. I've done some reading up on it because Frank Luke also used the same gun, and I'm something of an obsessor on Luke's career.

You can get more info about halfway down this page:

worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n1/hd1for.html

and here:

www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16007&highlight=11mm

[tippedtop]

What would be the stats if used in the game for one ofthese 11mm guns ?

[btaylor]

Greetings to you in the U.K.!!
I recently picked up the very same book. Osprey does nice work. I found the book a good read.

Thanks Stephen for the web links, they made for good additional reads.

WWI certainly proved to be a breeding ground for an array of experimentation in a number of areas- gunnery included.

Keeping things simple ('cause I hate to over-micro manage a fun game with too many details) here are some thoughts on playability rules for the 11mm gun:

1) Chance available, only on dedicated balloon busting missions or set-up missions involving balloon attacks, say 1 in 6 roll each plane in flight.
2) Play as single deck vickers, fire on double deck for effect on Balloon or plane. This way plane is not encumbered by weight factor or vibration and yet has extra kick that it was noted for.
3) Have to reseach futher for availabilty to Belgian/French/US airplane and start dates.

I would consider this a rare and non-standard gun for game purposes much like the 37mm Puteaux cannon(w/o having to obtain the 15k status). What are your thoughts?

Blake

[Stephen]

My research on Luke has come across this gun many times, so FWIW here's my thoughts...

1) For use only on dedicated balloon missions.
2) One or two pilots in flight should be "designated shooters." This was SOP for all US and Brit balloon flights in 1918... one or two pilots were designated as balloon attackers, the rest of the flight was for protection.
3) These designated shooters should roll 1-2 on 1D6 for balloon gun. Pilots with more than 3 BALLOON kills (BALLOON!! kills) may roll 1-4 for 11 mm gun on balloon missions.
4) 11mm gun operates as any other gun, but bumps up one table. If both guns are fired, player uses twin deck gun chart and bumps up one table (in addition to any ace bonuses). If fired singly, 11 mm gun uses single deck gun chart and bumps up one table (in addition to ace bonuses).
5) No weight penalties or considerations. The 11mm (.45 cal) gun was actually lighter than the 7.7 mm (.303) Vickers.
6) 11 mm fires as normal against all other targets

[btaylor]

Hey Stephen,

I like the ideas above.

Any info on the relative dates this gun came into use for Bel/Fr/US? Did the Brits use this?

Blake

[alien01]

The only addition I'd make is that the incendiary ammo tended to be less clean and leave more residue in the gun therefore the jamming chances should go up faster. Perhaps +5% for a short incendiary burst or +10% for a long or interrupted incendiary burst.

[Stephen]

Al is correct, but I'm not sure the additional jam chances should be included in the game because the situation was a bit more complicated than that in actual combat.

Shooting began at long range with the standard .303 Vickers gun. Hydrogen alone would not ignite inside the balloon. It was necessary to shoot lots of holes in the balloon in order to get the hydrogen to leak out and mix with oxygen. At this point it became flammable. Only then would the pilot open up with his 11 mm balloon gun.

So in essence, long bursts were not really required from the balloon gun in many cases. Maybe there's a way to work in additional jam chances... I don't know. Or perhaps maybe we should leave it alone to compensate for the fact that we still have a 1 in 6 chance that we'll miss a balloon, which was very much like missing when you throw a rock at the ocean.

[noski]

Stephen,
I like your analogy. I never thought about the idea that "How do you miss a balloon from 100'?" We always thought you should bump up a table if you hit to compensate for the large , non-moving target. I could see going bad a table on a roll of a 6 from 100' but not a miss.

[Stephen]

The trick in balloon strafing was not to hit the balloon... it was huge and almost impossible to miss. The trick was to fly in a dead straight line - a sitting duck for balloon defenses - while doing a considerable amount of shooting. This had to be done because hydrogen is not flammable without mixing with oxygen. So it was a nerve wracking ordeal to just sit there flying straight with every gun on the western front shooting at you from point blank range. Some pilots considered it suicide.

There were others, like Coppens and Luke, who had the courage/stupidity/bravery to throw caution to the wind and overcome their fear. They were tremendously successful, but it cost Coppens his leg and Luke his life.

That was how balloons were downed, and that's not Stephen's opinion. I've studied Luke for fifteen years, and US ace George Vaughn (13 kills and one balloon) told me that personally in a hotel room lobby in Dallas. The aces say that's the way it was done.

I suppose rolling a 6 and missing in DP might indicate a pilot who lost his nerve and jinked to avoid AA fire on the way in? Otherwise I can't see missing... just plain missing... from any distance. Even 3 or 4 hundred feet. The balloons were just too big.

[alien01]

"I suppose rolling a 6 and missing in DP might indicate a pilot who lost his nerve and jinked to avoid AA fire on the way in?"

There are a couple other possibilities. The concussion of the AA fire blew the nose or tail of the plane up or down or left or right. The engine just happened to knock at the wrong moment and the vibration threw him off. A wind gust moved the balloon. The shooter was distracted by the sight of the balloonatic bailing out.

Unless you're Rene Fonck there are always plenty of reasons for missing, no matter how easy the shot.

[Stephen]

A better analogy might be that the shooter got some hits on the balloon before being forced to break away by hot ground fire, blown one way or another by a near AA explosion, or the wind thing. But there's no way to reflect partial hits in the game so I guess we're best off leaving it at is.

Sure would be nice to see balloons at 4000 feet though... not 400.