Ace of Aces

[joseki]

Hey people,

We were discussing pilots and records at our last game and the subject Ace of Aces came up. We determined that none of our current players have ever had one. Admittedly the only Masters level player we have is Scott so he would probably be the only one of us to have one. I'm curious as to whether or not any one has one?

[AP]

This brings up some interesting questions... what is your definition of an 'Ace of Aces'?

Also, why would you consider only Scott as a Masters level player? Being humble there? I would think you could hold your own on that level yourself!!

[joseki]

Hey Andrew,
I would define Ace of Aces as an Ace who has downed 5 other Aces.
As for the Masters level, I think that society wide we define a Masters level player as someone who receives a mailed invite to play in the Masters game. I never have though I have hopes for this year:)

[Stephen]

I think the only one I have is Christopher Foxxe (Camels, 72/59). Maybe Harold Clark, too... not sure. After twenty years in the game, Foxxe has had the incredible honor of fighting many of the game's biggest aces... and remember, its not that easy to FIND enemy aces. By sheer mathmatics, your odds of having an enemy ace in the sky are very slim. Just finding them is hard enough. Actually shooting them down is extremely difficult. Doing it five times is almost impossible unless you play constantly, all over the country.

Foxxe's ace victims include:

1) Hpt. Ritt. Heinrich von Beinmeir (Frank Ferrero), 93/75, bailed out and survived, Foxxe won the DSO. Our Camels were outnumbered and outgunned, and I got on the DVII's tail for several turns. Frank was flying the biggest ace in the world at the time (literally) and had a false sense of security. He should have guarded his tail at all costs, but he turned and gave it to me in order to get another shot, then he couldn't shake me. Foxxe riddled his DVII and its a miracle he wasn't hit. It was a true honor to fight against Beinmeir (who went on to retire after 80 kills) and this was one of the great moments in my DP career.

2) Udo Sigmund (Clark Sigmund), 17/3. Clark flew like a tiger. Udo was in DVII's and was his favorite pilot. Clark was always a good player, but he raised his game when Udo was in the air. Thankfully, Udo survived.

3) Ltn Kimmel Roman (Scott Jones), 12/0, KIA. Just bad luck for Scott. Two of Roman's last three missions were against Foxxe and he came out on the short end every time. The last time, it killed him.

4) Vz Fryc Wurstmeister II (Ken Mrozak), 32/16, bailed out and survived. I believe Wurst II was in an Albatros and Foxxe was in a small Camel, giving Foxxe the edge. It was gutsy of Ken to fly Wurst in this situation and I'm glad he survived.

5) Ltn Reinhold Dunzel (Rick Lacy), 32/6, KIA. Dunzel is an Albatros legend around these parts, and I was sorry to be the one who killed him. Rick took Dunzel up in an Alb against a sky full of Camel aces in RBF. Talk about courage... EVERYONE in RBF is an ace.

Other aces/future aces/near aces shot down by Foxxe but not included in this list:

- Future ace Ltn Fritz Grenlin (Shawn Morgan), 5/4 at time of combat
- Future ace Roman Kimmel (Scott Jones), 10/0 at time of combat
- Future ace Ltn Gerd Schmidt (Scott Campbell), 11/1 at time of combat
- Future ace Ltn Reinhold Dunzel (Rick Lacy), 5/2 at time of combat

[joseki]

Now thats cool! Anyone else?

[AP]

I had an Alb DIII pilot that ended the career of a 110M/42K Camel pilot on a double 5's pilot hit...does the Ace that shot down an Ace of Aces count??

[Stephen]

It does to the guy you killed!

[noski]

This is offered as a comparioson to Foxxe's record. Since the Freikorps only considers pilots with 5 or more kills as 'aces' , any pilots downed by MacPherson with more than 12 missions usually don't get special mention (at least non that I can find) in any records kept. MacPherson has downed 4 aces in his time.

Kill # 26 Haup. Rudolf Hesserman 36/18 Fokker Dr1 POW
# 36 Lt. Klaus Fenner 24/10 Fokker D 7
# 50 Lt. Burte Somberbach 30/8 Albatros KIA
# 52 Lt. Joseph Pitsche 17/8 Fokker D 7 KIA

As a side note, I made a trip to Morris ,Ill where Ritter von Beinmeir and my Ritter von Kissinger (82 kills at the time ) flew 2 missions together. Von Kissinger scored his 83rd in the first mission. In the 2nd mission von Kissinger got shot to pieces but von Beinmeir skillfully kept the enemy at bay while Kissinger escaped heavily damaged. Von Beinmeir's record remained at 75 kills after my visit ,so his battle with Foxxe occured sometime later. When von Beinmeir reached 80 kills ,Frank wanted to keep flying him because I was still using Kissinger. MC prevailed upon me to to retire Kissinger from the official DP world,which I did.

D

[joseki]

I'm really glad I started this thread. I've only ever had a few aces and every year when the Ace list comes out I wonder. Maybe we can add an extra column next year listing those Pilots who are Ace of Aces?

[Stephen]

Thanks for the Bienmeir story, Dan. I never knew that... very cool. That must have occurred immediately prior to Foxxe's victory over him. Frank, Walt Carr and the rest of the guys out there in IL (can't remember the name of their group) pitched a weekend bash in the early '90's and that's where it happened.

BTW, as a funny aside... Walt and all the other local guys were cheering me on like crazy. They desperately wanted Bienmeir to die Can't say I blame them. He'd been killing off their pilots for years. It was a miracle that Frank's pilot hadn't already been hit and he couldn't shake me, so he bailed out even though his wings were still on.

You make a good point about aces vs. experience pilots, too. I never really thought about that since there is no actual difference between the two in practice. What did you intend, Jim?

[joseki]

Well I was thinking an extra list where Pilots with 5 Ace kills are Listed. Perhaps we can include the list of victims.... er kills.

[noski]

Jim,
I think Stephen is asking you what you consider for the term 'ace'. Is an ace someone with 5 kills or more? Or is it anyone with 12 missions or more regardlees if they have 0 kills or not?

D

[Stephen]

There's lots of fun ways to crunch these numbers.

The strictest way is to only allow kills over pilots who had 5 or more K's at the time of the combat. And I can see the beauty and simplicity of it. However, that discounts the equal difficulty in downing a pilot who has 12 or more M's, who presents the exact same challenge.

You could also count victories over both ace and exp. pilots, which is probably the most accurate from a gaming standpoint.

Then you could adopt the historical viewpoint and allow inclusion of all pilots who had reached or would eventually reach ace status. That's how historical literature treats such lists.

[joseki]

noski said:

Jim,
I think Stephen is asking you what you consider for the term 'ace'. Is an ace someone with 5 kills or more? Or is it anyone with 12 missions or more regardlees if they have 0 kills or not?

D

Ooops must have explained myself badly. I believe that an Ace is someone with 5 confirmed kills.

I would call a pilot with 12+ missions and less than 5 confirmed kills Experienced.

I would call an Ace of Aces a pilot who has downed 5 other pilots who had a minimum of 5 confirmed kills each.

[joseki]

admin said:

There's lots of fun ways to crunch these numbers.

The strictest way is to only allow kills over pilots who had 5 or more K's at the time of the combat. And I can see the beauty and simplicity of it. However, that discounts the equal difficulty in downing a pilot who has 12 or more M's, who presents the exact same challenge.

You could also count victories over both ace and exp. pilots, which is probably the most accurate from a gaming standpoint.

Then you could adopt the historical viewpoint and allow inclusion of all pilots who had reached or would eventually reach ace status. That's how historical literature treats such lists.

I would go for the strict method. I feel making this list would be one those lifetime achievement things for a pilot.