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Post by kirkh on Apr 26, 2007 7:06:52 GMT -5
Of course the whole reason I brought this up is because now with VDP we'll all be playing against people with different viewpoints. Groups that have played together prior to now have their own ways of handling things within their own group, but now we'll all be playing together. The question we'll have to ask ourselves before taking that kind of shot is not whether we think it's right, but whether the guy we're shooting at thinks it's right.
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albpilot
Ace of Aces
Red Baron Fight XVIII Champ
I'm not frightened of terrorism, so please don't go and create a police state on my account...
Posts: 1,181
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Post by albpilot on Apr 26, 2007 8:17:27 GMT -5
Ok, 2 quick stories of head on shots from my personal experience:
1) I had a rookie up in the air and was a wingman to Ken, who had up his gazillion ace Billy Bathgate. We were flying against Stephen and Stephen Dale I think. Ken was getting hammered by Stephen (who I suspected had an ace up too based on the amount of damage he was doing). It was getting to the point that I was seriously fearing for Ken's pilot making it home. So there was a turn where I happened to be moving last and Ken came back toward me with Stephen still tailing him. I flew in 50 ft over Ken for a HO on Stephen to try to break the tail. Stephen opted to switch targeting. I opted to fire a SHORT burst rather than an interrupted or long burst, and I recall we both hit. I was knocked out of the fight, but Stephen took enough damage he couldn't catch Ken, so from my perspective that was a just and chivalrous act (Stephen may disagree).
2) We were playing the campaign game and I was in a Halberstadt CLII. I was moving last on the first turn, and I dove down to take a strafing run at some ground troops. However, I planned out my movement so that my observer could cover my single seat wingmen, which resulted in a HO shot on Stephen's Sopwith. From my point of view, this was a good and valid move, since a) I flew my plane for the pilots shot and b) I was defending a wingman. From Stephen's this was an atrocity, a deliberate crossing of the T against him.
The point I'm making here is that there is no way you will ever come up with something that suits everyone, because no matter what you do, the person RECEIVING the shot will always grouse about it being an unnecessary atrocity but the person TAKING the shot will always be able to justify it in their own mind. For purposes of the online game then, just let it be known that anyone is free to play and then choose not to play with people who take cheap shots if they are chronic about it.
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Post by AP on Apr 26, 2007 9:01:04 GMT -5
Albpilot brings up good examples of when head on attacks are valid (well, point one is anyways two seaters are a WHOLE other can of worms!!) Maybe instead of defining it as 'desperate' it should be called 'defensive'. It should be made clear to all new players that 95% of veterans consider the shot a desperate defensive act when there are no other options and should be used with caution. I will also be quick to say this to- Generally I am a VERY friendly player, but if someone moves in for an unprovoked HO on my wingmate & I move next, there is no doubt I will 'double-up' and also take a HO on the 'aggressor' and do everything in my power to knock them out of the sky... They will also become a 'preferred target' in future games as well... I know many players that share this same sentiment, so caution using HO's is a good thing!
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Rex
Lieutenant
Posts: 118
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Post by Rex on Apr 26, 2007 10:46:43 GMT -5
I have always seen it in 2 ways, One, its in the rules so it is a valid attack. Two, i think the point was made earlier that chivalry was not something that WWI pilots spent alot of time thinking about. Especially in a dog fight.
That being said, I don't really agree that it is an attrctive shot. I would take every other shot in the game before taking a head on, just based on the fact that the target gets to shoot back. Not to mention that the shot he is getting has a high probability to kill me as well. I don't see head ons as a lure, because I want to get every one of my pilots home. Even the 0/0 scrubs.
I see your point about not wanting to Offend other players, and this discussion is a great way to see how everyone feels about it. And it is a good time to talk about it since VDP will hopefully be drawing in more players who will likely not had alot of FTF experience with this moral dilemma. I used to see DP as a WWI air combat sim, but I'm starting to see the roleplay. I have even considered varying my play style on a per pilot basis to give them more personality. Even to the point of maybe having pilots who are dishonorable and take HOs often. But that is just thought. I noticed the current issue of the Dispatch one of the pilots had the nickname of "The Atrocitor". I wondered if he got that nickname from shooting at parachutes and taking HOs. Ether way, I think the main thing to remember is that at the end of the day it is just a game. And try not to take these things too seriously
-Rex
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Post by kirkh on Apr 26, 2007 12:09:15 GMT -5
That's a great idea. Can I have a pilot named Will Biship who doesn't fly any missions yet still accumulates victories?
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Rex
Lieutenant
Posts: 118
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Post by Rex on Apr 26, 2007 14:31:42 GMT -5
That's a great idea. Can I have a pilot named Will Biship who doesn't fly any missions yet still accumulates victories? Thats fine with me. As long as he never flies. In fact he can have 2 victories every time! How's that for fun! -Rex
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Post by Stephen on Apr 26, 2007 14:56:41 GMT -5
It was getting to the point that I was seriously fearing for Ken's pilot making it home. So there was a turn where I happened to be moving last and Ken came back toward me with Stephen still tailing him. I flew in 50 ft over Ken for a HO on Stephen to try to break the tail. Stephen opted to switch targeting. I opted to fire a SHORT burst rather than an interrupted or long burst, and I recall we both hit. I was knocked out of the fight, but Stephen took enough damage he couldn't catch Ken, so from my perspective that was a just and chivalrous act (Stephen may disagree). If I had really been upset over it I would remember the incident, and I don't. If it was against Bathgate, yes, I'm sure I had a good ace in the air on that mission but I just don't remember the game. If Ken was truly in big trouble with his big ace and he was about to die, then I can see the shot. I'm sure I didn't appreciate it at the time, but I don't remember complaining. And if you took a short burst - just enough to divert my shot from Ken - then that's about as good as you can do. I did complain about this one and felt that it was really a lousy shot until I found out your altitude. Even though your plane was in the square in front of me, you were not at my altitude. You had actually positioned for the 100' shot on your front gun's target and the shot on me was not point blank, it was 150'. I do remember this incident and you'll recall that after figuring the shot distance I stopped protesting. I still certainly didn't like my best-ever Tripe ace taking a T shot from head on, but you did not pull up and park 100' in front of me as I first thought.
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noski
Captain
"Richthofen lived where the rest of us go , only in our greatest moments." Udet
Posts: 286
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Post by noski on Apr 26, 2007 16:00:49 GMT -5
Two -seats usually have but one ff MG and HOs were a common against them over the Freikorps skies. Udet describes taking out an RE 8 that way on his first patrol w/ MvR. So when a 2-seat crossed a T there were no hard feelings. In 1989, the Freikorps played in the team tourney. In the first game, Mike Morrissette shot a gap and accidently blundered into a HO shot against Will Niebling (he's a legendary player). Will was absolutely furious! However, when he learned the Freikorps doesn't allow backward moving planes, and that Mike didn't realize he could've removed, Will calmed down quickly and accepted Mike's apology. I agree with Andrew, ultimately it boils down to personalities. Aaron Gokey takes an HO as well as he gives them, even if you gun for Elmer Groover. Everyone knows you don't leave a 100' gap when Gokey is in the game. But that's Aaron. A few years ago in the Masters game, John(the Aussie) basically announced his strategy was HO attacks 'so you better be shooting back and may the best man win'. So that's what he did but nobody hit their HO shots against him! I think he scored 3 kills and won the tourney. I don't recall any hard feelings. Except Wes(the other Aussie) who said that if John won the Masters he'd be forever insufferible at a DP board. Charlie Faught gave me a nod of approval when I attacked him HO (i don't remember the details of the situation but I was defending a wingman in someway) but he understood why I did it. We rolled our 'to hit' rolls together and we both missed. We both broke into grins and shook hands heartily across the board as we both had ace pilots at risk. His was LaChapelle ,one of his oldest aces.
He who lives by the sword, ect ect....
D
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Post by kevan on Apr 26, 2007 16:33:12 GMT -5
That's a great idea. Can I have a pilot named Will Biship who doesn't fly any missions yet still accumulates victories? I'm really hoping this is a joke, and that there aren't people around who still buy into the slandering of Billy Bishop.
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Post by kirkh on Apr 27, 2007 7:08:00 GMT -5
Yes it was, but for some reason my computer here doesn't allow me the use of smilies to make sure people understand I'm joking.
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joseki
Captain
Come to the dark side!
Posts: 274
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Post by joseki on May 17, 2007 10:45:11 GMT -5
Hey guys,
Just to add a little spice to the argument. Remember at 200' or less you have closing damage and run the risk of a mid-air collision.
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kazorm
Lieutenant
2005-06-07 Indy Squadron Champion
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." - Ghandi
Posts: 245
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Post by kazorm on May 19, 2007 10:37:53 GMT -5
The "Atrociter" got his nickname from a 100' head on attack on an armored AEG J-1 that has no forward firing guns, and let me tell you, EVERYONE at that table was PISSED!!!! But you have to remember, he was just being role played as himself as his name is MAXWELL EDISON!!! (Beatles reference) Majoring in medicine. ;D He also TOLD everyone BEFORE the start he was going to show them another way to bring down armored 2 seaters!!!! By the way, the collision missed!!!! ;D
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Post by tippedtop on May 29, 2007 17:16:41 GMT -5
Well as of last night I have had my first head on attack done against me.
I was horrified that someone would use this tactic at all and just totally discusted. The reason for this, well its not even the fact that it wasdone. I mean okay, no one in our group has EVER done one before. But- yes, they are in the rules and a valid part of the game.
What made me almost insane with rage was this. I am doing quite well in our campaign. My best pilot is an 8m/1k. Now that might not seem very good to some of you players outthere, but he isthe best pilot in the group I play with. As I seem to be one of the stronger players in my group, my fellow players came up with a plan.
Each time I take out a pilot, they are now going to roll up a novice and just do all out HO attacks until they either die - or kill my better pilots.
I just feel sick at this and to be totally honist - im not even sure I wanna play DP under these circumstances.
An ace on and ace, okay - I understand that. id never do it myself - under ANY circumstances, but I get it.
What happened to me last night was just not on IMHO.
thoughts................................?
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Post by AP on May 29, 2007 17:22:56 GMT -5
Yeah, that is really not the way the game is meant to be played. Very un-sportsmanlike and really defeats the purpose of the game. Sure, they can 'target' your pilot, but doing Head-Ons is not the proper way to play.
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Post by tippedtop on May 29, 2007 17:28:12 GMT -5
Im glad you said that becuase i was affraid I might be over reacting. it makes it worse when I found out it was one of the more experienced players who "put up" a pretty new guy to do it.
I think this is one of the best games ever, I just love it, but this has left such a bad taste in my mouth Im not sure I wanna play again.
For me, HO attack rules might as well not exist as id never use them.
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